March
S M T W T F S
1 2
3 4 5 6 7 8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16
17 18 19 20 21 22 23
24 25 26 27 28 29 30
31
Who's Online Now
1 members (Southern Sport), 860 guests, and 6 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums10
Topics38,374
Posts544,016
Members14,391
Most Online1,258
Mar 29th, 2024
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 9 of 52 1 2 7 8 9 10 11 51 52
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 423
Likes: 73
Sidelock
***
OP Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 423
Likes: 73
Imperdix kindly provided photos and of his converted Horsley no. 1547 and information on the conversion. He observes it is probably a later conversion, noting that the top front edge of the lockplates have been filed away to accommodate deeper fences, and that instead of adding a faceplate, Horsley installed a different action frame, something that David Baker believed Horsley did a good trade in, judging from the number of conversions.

It takes a sharp eye to spot some conversions.



Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 423
Likes: 73
Sidelock
***
OP Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 423
Likes: 73
Stephen Helsley kindly provided two William Powell records, the earliest surviving records of pinfires made by William Powell & Son of Birmingham. This provides great information on the costs of the guns and accessories (note £1/5 for the cost of a Jeffries loading machine).

The first is dated 9 August 1859 and is the earliest recorded Powell pinfire. Earlier day books were lost or destroyed. Owen Powell (no relation) was a long-time client of William Powell. He was also a gunmaker - so Stephen assumes the £11 price reflects the normal 15-20 percent discount.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

The second record is dated 7 August 1860, for numbers 3004 and 3005:

2 best Breech Loading shot guns 30 inches for No16 cartridges Brazier's Locks, stub damascus barrels, stocks buffed & lever over guard £18.10 ea.
1m No.16 French cartridge cases £2/10

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Last edited by Steve Nash; 02/03/21 04:37 PM.
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 3,134
Likes: 309
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 3,134
Likes: 309
Very cool Imperdix, and Stephen Helsley. Those documents are priceless. And they give a solid documentary foundation to Stephen Nash's earlier essay on the beginning of pin-fire break action guns In Birmingham.

Returning briefly to the subject of Eley pin-fire shells: Eley in 1856-58 made "cartridges" for muzzle loaders and needle-guns, etc. Thus, in his advertisements, when he mentions "cartridges" it's difficult to sort out what is what. I gather that "green" are muzzle loading cartridges, and "Red" were unloaded pin-fire shells, but this isn't sure. I believe his "wire fire" "cartridges" for instance are for muzzle loaders though some adapted them to pin-fire shells. We badly need a series of Eley catalogues from the era.

Here is an advertisement from 05 June 1858 "The Field" dealing with both muzzle-loading cartridges and breech-loading husks.


Those 7 years from 1855 to 1862 were truly a time of ferment and change in the British gun industry.

Note: In addition take a look at the H.Holland advertisement between the two Eley ads. Harris Holland puts out a claim similar (not a definitive) to the one that Reilly advertised four years later...i.e.

"As all the work is manufactured upon the premises, sportsmen will have the advantage of viewing it through every stage of its manufacture."

Last edited by Argo44; 07/17/20 08:20 PM.

Baluch are not Brahui, Brahui are Baluch
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 6,264
Likes: 196
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 6,264
Likes: 196
This post has brought out a lot of serious research. Thanks to all. I hope that somewhere along the way, we get a chance to study the conversion guns as the trends departed from the pinfires. There were several interesting ways the conversions were done.

Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 423
Likes: 73
Sidelock
***
OP Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 423
Likes: 73
Originally Posted By: Daryl Hallquist
I hope that somewhere along the way, we get a chance to study the conversion guns as the trends departed from the pinfires. There were several interesting ways the conversions were done.


I Agree. And I have several conversions (muzzle-loading to pinfire, and pinfire to centrefire) coming up, as well as dual-fire guns. The thorny problem of centrefire cartridge extraction in conversions was addressed in a variety of creative ways.

Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 423
Likes: 73
Sidelock
***
OP Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 423
Likes: 73
Imperdix has kindly provided additional pictures of his converted Horsley:








The lack of the patent use number on a Horsley-made gun is interesting. And what a graceful turn to the toplever.

Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 423
Likes: 73
Sidelock
***
OP Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 423
Likes: 73
Wow, already more than 3700 views on this thread, so that puts an end to my belief that all the persons still interested in pinfires would fit in the back seat of my car. Thanks to all who have contributed so far, and thanks to the readers who have been quietly visiting this thread. And I should also take this opportunity to thank and recognize the Internet Gun Club for graciously allowing me to use historical information in their IGC Database in my pinfire research.

There is a lot of inventiveness to come. The next development in snap-actions included the feature of partly cocking the hammers when opening the gun. What seems like an obvious feature now was not so obvious then. The first breech-loading guns were slow to use by modern, hammerless-gun standards. To open the gun each hammer had to be brought to half-cock, in order for the rotating barrels to clear the overhanging noses of the pinfire hammers. Opening the action required another series of movements, more or less awkward depending on the design. Unloading/reloading was simple, a dexterous reversal of hand movements brought the gun closed, and the hammers could be pulled back to full-cock in readiness to fire.

Feathered game hunting in the 1850s and early 1860s was mainly with walked-up game, with limited shooting opportunities during a day's hunt. The speed of reloading was not really a factor in adopting the breech-loader, which in any case was much, much faster than with a muzzle-loader. With the emergence of the driven shoot ("battue") where shooting opportunities were greatly increased, guns that could quickly be opened, emptied, reloaded, and brought to fire were advantageous, as were pairs of guns to be shot with the help of a loader. Before the driven shoot, there simply was no reason to have pairs of guns, let alone perfectly matched ones. In any case, before the days of large-scale pheasant breeding on private estates, a pinfire gun of any type was sufficient to deal with the day's shooting. As driven shoots increased in totals of birds, having a snap-action gun was a decided advantage though, if a second gun was out of the question. In the period before John Stanton's patents for a rebounding lock (firstly in 1867, and improved in 1869 and 1877), various gunmakers tried their hand at improving the efficiency and ergonomics of gun actions, and the assisted part-cocking of hammers. One of the more successful designs was that which appeared in the guns of London gunmakers Cogswell and Harrison.

The "typical" formation of a gunmaker started with an apprenticeship under a recognized gunmaker, and in time the apprentice would become a gunmaker, possibly be taken on as a partner, or move on to set up on their own. In this way the "pedigree" of most gunmaking names can be traced back to the Mantons or other famous 18th Century or early 19th Century gunmakers. However, there were notable exceptions, the tobacconist Harris Holland being one, another being Benjamin Cogswell, the pawnbroker.

The first Benjamin Cogswell started as a pawnbroker in London in 1770, and his son, also Benjamin, was born in 1796. Benjamin Cogswell the younger continued the pawnbroker business, and gradually became involved in the selling of guns, perhaps those held in collateral against loans. In 1842 he bought the pawnbroker business of Edward Benton at 223 Strand. Benton had previously bought this business from Robert Essex, a silversmith and dealer in firearms, who had inherited it from Hector Essex, a gunsmith and jeweller at 223 and 224 Strand. Cogswell advertised himself as a "gun and pistol warehouse." At some point from these premises Benjamin Cogswell found his talents as a gunmaker, and as an inventor. In 1848 Benjamin Cogswell registered a design (No. 1378) for a cap magazine for revolvers, and in 1852 he registered a design (No. 3389) for a six shot revolving pistol. In 1851 his "shopman" was Edward Harrison, and in 1857 Benjamin Cogswell started advertising himself as Gunmaker. By 1860 Cogswell had retired and the business was continued by his son, also named Benjamin. Harrison became a partner in the business, and in 1863 the firm was re-named Cogswell & Harrison. Edward Harrison was a prolific inventor, and on 1 February 1864 he registered patent No. 271 for a part self-cocking, rotating bolt, single bite, snap action pinfire gun, that was very similar to the William Fletcher patent of 1863. The gun pictured here is the 26th gun built on Harrison's patent.

It is a 12-bore with the self-half-cocking underlever action, serial number 5904 made in 1864 or 1865. The 30 3/16" damascus barrels carry the barrel maker's mark of Amos Elvins (Elvins worked for James Purdey before establishing his own business in 1864 at 64 Wells Road, Oxford Street, and he supplied barrels to Thomas Boss and other top makers). The top rib is signed "Cogswell & Harrison 223 & 224 Strand, London", and the back-action locks are signed as well. The push-forward underlever single-bite snap-action with half-cocking feature is Edward Harrison's patent No. 271 of 1864. The round fences have rising rods operating off the under-lever, which push the hammers back to half-cock when the underlever is pressed forward. This allows the gun to be opened in one smooth movement, and once re-loaded, the gun snaps shut with the hammers still at half-cock. The action bar is signed "Harrison's Patent No 26" within an acanthus-leaf cartouche, and this patent use number is also marked on the action table, under the barrels, and the fore-end iron. This action was popular, so a low use number indicates the gun was made early in its run, in 1864 or 1865, depending on the number of guns built on this design. Unfortunately Cogswell & Harrison no longer have the records for guns made during this period, so it is not possible to know how many sporting guns were made each year, or to trace the original owner. The barrels still have mirror bores, and the gun weighs 6 lb 13 oz.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Last edited by Steve Nash; 02/03/21 04:38 PM.
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 423
Likes: 73
Sidelock
***
OP Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 423
Likes: 73
Here is yet more information courtesy of Steve Helsley, from the 1854-1859 Journal of William and John Rigby, in Dublin. The client is Lord Otho Fitzgerald, and in August he purchased both a "Foreign Lefaucheux gun" for 10/10 and a "plain Double Lefaucheux gun Best Locks No. 10818" for 23/2.


Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 598
Likes: 30
Hal Offline
Sidelock
Offline
Sidelock

Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 598
Likes: 30
The best gun history I have read! Does anyone have a picture of one of those combustible muzzle-loader cartridges? Were the cases opened at the bottom during loading by some sort of projection near the flash hole or merely crushed like the Colt skins?

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 948
Likes: 2
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 948
Likes: 2
Somewhere here I have a couple of intact original wire shot cartridges. I'll be on the lookout for them when I get on the task of unearthing the breech loading percussion shotgun.

Page 9 of 52 1 2 7 8 9 10 11 51 52

Link Copied to Clipboard

doublegunshop.com home | Welcome | Sponsors & Advertisers | DoubleGun Rack | Doublegun Book Rack

Order or request info | Other Useful Information

Updated every minute of everyday!


Copyright (c) 1993 - 2024 doublegunshop.com. All rights reserved. doublegunshop.com - Bloomfield, NY 14469. USA These materials are provided by doublegunshop.com as a service to its customers and may be used for informational purposes only. doublegunshop.com assumes no responsibility for errors or omissions in these materials. THESE MATERIALS ARE PROVIDED "AS IS" WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EITHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANT-ABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, OR NON-INFRINGEMENT. doublegunshop.com further does not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the information, text, graphics, links or other items contained within these materials. doublegunshop.com shall not be liable for any special, indirect, incidental, or consequential damages, including without limitation, lost revenues or lost profits, which may result from the use of these materials. doublegunshop.com may make changes to these materials, or to the products described therein, at any time without notice. doublegunshop.com makes no commitment to update the information contained herein. This is a public un-moderated forum participate at your own risk.

Note: The posting of Copyrighted material on this forum is prohibited without prior written consent of the Copyright holder. For specifics on Copyright Law and restrictions refer to: http://www.copyright.gov/laws/ - doublegunshop.com will not monitor nor will they be held liable for copyright violations presented on the BBS which is an open and un-moderated public forum.

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
(Release build 20201027)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 7.0.33-0+deb9u11+hw1 Page Time: 0.094s Queries: 36 (0.070s) Memory: 0.8784 MB (Peak: 1.8987 MB) Data Comp: Off Server Time: 2024-03-29 10:54:47 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS