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Joined: Jan 2005
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Hi Steve

I look forward to seeing the details of your gun.
For pinfire cartridges to work with this gun, the firing pins would have to protude out from the back side (the case head) of the cartridge case, not from the rim and those dovetail features would need to be replaced with parts that would need to have clearance for the firing pins.
I've seen percussion type conversion cartridges for pinfire system, but with these barrels, every pinfire cartridge I've ever seen or handled would/could not breech up in this gun.

There is provision for a ramrod, although it is missing. I'll measure it's ways tomorrow.

Also this gun has no cartridge trap, the buttplate is solid.

Does your Beringer feature the assisted opening stud?

Note the serial number on these locks.
Is it lower or higher (or not even similar) than the number of your gun?
Are these locks similar to the locks in your gun?
The hammer spindles here are hexagonal fwiw.

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Does the set of barrels on the Tinker gun have the "notches" for a vertical pin like most pinfires ? If so, I cannot see the notches. Then, if no notches I'd suggest that there may have been two sets of barrels. One for a normal pinfire with the breech dovetails set up as they are now. The way I understand the pictures, with the dovetails in place and the pictured barrels in place, there is no means to fire any cartridge.

Then, if the dovetails are removed and replaced by something similar to the Westley Richards conversion that Mr. Nash posted earlier , the gun could be used with this set of barrels as a centerfire. If this set of barrels actually does have the notches for a vertical pinfire pin, then either type of ammunition might be used , depending on which dovetail breech set up is used.

In the scenario I mentioned, the ramrod would serve as the extractor for the "non-pinfire" , possibly centerfire, set up. The pinfire cartridge could usually be extracted by hand or with a small tool designed for same.

Last edited by Daryl Hallquist; 07/23/20 12:48 PM.
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No notches.

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I've imagined ways to run it as a pinfire-oid system.
That's not what I'm up to with posting these images.

It's an interesting piece.
I would be excited to see if anyone here has seen something just like this gun.
I'm not expecting to see another one.

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Here are the pictures Steve Helsley refers to:



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The attention to detail on the Tinker gun is interesting. Lots of extra work to store the dovetail pieces when they were not being used. Whatever the plan, at the time it was well thought out and took a lot of work. The effort to store the dovetails when not in use required some disassembly , so the conversion to another mechanism was not a field job.

I have a French Lefacheux [sp ?] actioned pinfire stamped J. Murat on the action flats. The engraving is a similar style [somewhat unusual] as the Tinker gun and the Murat has the thimbles for a full length rod, but too small in diameter to be a cleaning rod. My guess it was used to remove stuck cartridges. Bernard stamped barrels.

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The dovetail features look similar to those on my gun, although my gun has no provision for the firing pin of a conventional pinfire cartridge.

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Tinker, you have a very interesting gun, one I presume to pre-date British pinfires. Mind, it is devilishly difficult to date French and other Continental pinfires without paper records, as the patterns did not change much until the beginning of the 20th century. However, a gun built as a breech-loading percussion or dual-fire percussion-pinfire would definitely be early. It is remarkable that the pinfire system was in use in France for twenty years before it appeared in Britain.

I'm also taken aback by the assisted-opening stud, a feature I always understood to have been a Hodges/Lang's invention, though never patented. I don't think Casimir Lefaucheux's gun on display at the Great Exhibition of 1851 had this feature, Lefaucheux used a different arrangement to help with opening the barrels and closing the lever. However, Beatus Beringer (6, Rue du Coq, St. Honoré, Paris) also displayed his guns at the Great Exhibition, and the idea might have come from his guns. It seems a bit of a stretch to suppose the reverse, that that Lang first offered the rising stud in 1853, and it was subsequently copied in France?? These Beringer guns have definitely got me thinking in new directions. Similarly, having a removable wooden fore-end might have started with Beringer guns, not the British ones.

I had planned on continuing with British guns, namely Dougall's Lockfast action, but this turn on French guns is a good introduction on how different French/Continental pinfires were in terms of technological advancement and aesthetic designs when the British guns first appeared - with their 20-year head start.

We've just seen the Beringer style. By the mid 1850s the standard Lefaucheux gun had heavy, arching hammer noses, a long forward-under-lever, an iron fore-end (with a small hidden lever to release the barrels from the action, an improvement by the Parisian gunmaker Le Page), a scroll or volute-shaped trigger guard bow, and a straight stock, often without chequering. Engraving styles varied, from open floral scrolls to full-coverage chiselled reliefs, and were usually bolder in appearance than on British guns.

In the flurry of technological advances happening on the Continent, guns were also appearing with push-forward under-levers, side-levers, Beringer under-levers, Bastin-type pivoted under-levers, and many more. These advances were making their way across the Channel, as, for example, Lancaster's slide-and-drop action was a French design by Louis Julien Gastinne, and George Henry Daw's centre-fire gun was designed by the Parisian Francois Eugene Schneider.

While some British makers apparently did copy Lefaucheux's iron fore-end design (I have not seen one, though), at first most favoured Lang's understated forward-under-lever design, after which the lever-over-guard became almost universal. The lines of the British muzzle-loader were followed as much as possible, most evident in the appearance of bar-in-wood guns, with decoration also reserved and understated. That is not to say engraving patterns weren't spectacular when viewed close-up, but they were rarely what one noticed first.

Here is a typical French Lefaucheux-type forward-facing underlever pinfire sporting gun, a 12-bore by Châlet, Père et Fils of St. Étienne, France, serial number 10, made sometime between 1856-1868. It has the Lefaucheux double-bite action with forward-facing underlever, back-action locks signed "Châlet" on the right-hand lock and "A St Étienne" on the left-hand lock, fine chain-pattern double-proof damascus barrels by renowned barrel makers Antoine Heurtier and L. Piney, a scroll-type trigger guard, heavy hammers, minor engraving, and a unchequered walnut stock. The gun weighs 6 lb 13 oz.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
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[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Continuing on the subject of early Continental breech-loaders, here is a Belgian gun. Unfortunately, one can't help but associate 'Belgian gun' with the mass-produced, cheap hardware-store guns, knock-off copies, and otherwise poor-quality guns that were exported in large numbers. The truth is that artisans have been making guns in Liege for over four centuries - that's a lot of experience. Many Belgian guns do not carry a maker's name but are 'Guild' guns produced by one or more artisans.

Here is an example of a good quality Belgian gun, and a reminder that not all Lefaucheux-under-lever guns had all-iron fore-ends. It is a 16-bore Lefaucheux-type forward-facing underlever pinfire sporting gun by Jean-Baptiste Rongé et Fils of 4 Place St. Jean, Liège, Belgium. This gun appears to have originally started as a double rifle, and subsequently bored out to a smoothbore. It has a removable wooden fore-end, and it and the stock are chequered. The metal parts have an attractive deeply etched floral scroll motif. The Lefaucheux lever is iron covered with horn, which is a nice touch. Notice the dovetail on the rib where the leaf sights used to be.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Last edited by Steve Nash; 02/03/21 04:53 PM.
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Another type of early Continental breech-loader is this peculiar 16-bore Colleye System pinfire sporting gun retailed by August Gottlieb Schüler of Suhl, Germany. The action (and possibly the whole gun) is by Maximilien Nicolas Colleye of Liège, Belgium. The Colleye System is a single-bite pivoted underlever hinge action which, when unopened, has a strong resemblance to the Bastin action (however the barrels rotate, they don't slide forward). The gun has bold acanthus scroll engraving throughout, and the 'island' back-locks (something rarely encountered on British guns) have acanthus scroll and game scenes. The 31" damascus barrels are acid etched, and the gun weighs 6 lb 14 oz.

Maximilien Nicolas Colleye (also spelled Coleye and Coley; also traded as Colleye Fils) was a gunmaker/actioner located in Hoignée-Cheratte, Liège, in business from 1850-1865. He was the son of well-known gunmaker-inventor Henri Joseph Colleye. The Colleye mechanism was apparently popular in Germany, and several large gunmaking firms such as August Schuler of Suhl and Johann Peterlongo of Innsbruck offerred System Colleye guns (Peterlongo had a System Colleye gun on display at the Paris World Fair in 1867). Interestingly, this mechanism never made it to any British pinfire makers, unlike other continental designs like the Bastin and Ghaye system actions, which were offered by several top makers. At a time when there were quite a few competing designs, either it was wasn't popular enough, or Colleye stopped making it.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Last edited by Steve Nash; 02/03/21 04:55 PM.
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Mr. Nash , the differences in the Continental and British pinfires are interesting. I have often wondered about the choices of gauges. Most Continental, mainly French, Belgian, and German, pinfire shotguns are 16 gauges. I have not paid strict attention to the British gauges, but I cannot recall seeing a British pinfire in 16 gauge. I'm sure there must be some , but rare. We do see British 8, 10, 12, and others.

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