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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 13,165 Likes: 1155
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 13,165 Likes: 1155 |
Having handled thousands of shotguns over the years, I have come to a less scientific view, but one that is born out by experience. A well handling gun will have most of the mass of each and every part towards the middle of the assembled gun.
To make it clearer. Find a gun that handles, well, one that does not resist your movements when you shoulder it. Disasemble it and hold each part, ie barrels, action and forend at the places where the hands normally go when the gun is assembled. Held in such a way each part will tip towards the centre of the gun when assembled. Evidently you never handled one of my little .410 S x Ss. It has an alloy action, 28" barrels and fairly dense wood in the buttstock, which is generous in it's LOP. Rocketman measured, weighed, and spun it years ago on his MOI turntable to get the numbers for me and his database. I had commented that the little lightweight was easy for me to shoot well, contrary to what most people find to be the case with very lightweight guns. It weighs 4 lb. 14 oz. When he finished his determinations he explained to me why it was easy to shoot well, despite it's featherweight. It has more of it's mass concentrated on the ends, as opposed to in the action body. This gives the gun the "feel" of a heavier double with more traditional weight distribution characteristics. Total gun weight is not the end all characteristic so many shooters think it is. Where that weight is concentrated is, and not all guns are "heavy in the middle". At least one is just the opposite. And, I'm willing to bet it's not the only one. SRH
May God bless America and those who defend her.
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 4,038 Likes: 48
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 4,038 Likes: 48 |
Yogi musta said that because it wasn't me.
I'm with you there though Stan. My little Rizzini 20ga. is similar. The long barrel set and long pull make the 5lb, 14oz gun handle like a slightly heavier gun.
When Krieghoff decided they wanted some of the Italian market they went to a lighter barrel set and took weight out of the front end. It's a fairly simple concept like why we try to avoid weight in the ends of a sailboat, but it works both ways.
"The price of good shotgunnery is constant practice" - Fred Kimble
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 13,165 Likes: 1155
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 13,165 Likes: 1155 |
Yogi musta said that because it wasn't me. Huh? So, you didn't mean it when you said it, on p. 6 of this thread? SRH
May God bless America and those who defend her.
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 4,038 Likes: 48
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 4,038 Likes: 48 |
Different guy. Similar moniker.
Not to worry.
"The price of good shotgunnery is constant practice" - Fred Kimble
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,954 Likes: 12
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,954 Likes: 12 |
Good questions!
Scales are available that will weigh within a small fraction of an ounce. MY experiments say most shooters can detect a 4 ounce change in weight; thus, 1 ounce accuracy is acceptable. Balance point is detectable for most at 1/4" variation and can be measured to a smaller fraction. Saying mounted swing effort is "near" the butt does not account for the distance from mount point to spinal axis (the real axis of rotation). Ignoring spine to shoulder width means we will not be able to have an absolute number, but the gun's contribution is captured.
Q#2 - Yes. However, the point of balance is the point of rotation that requires the minimum force to accelerate rotation. Note that an object "flung" through the air will rotate about its balance point. Most shooters will rotate the gun held between the hands very near to balance point.
Q#3 - For each shooter there is a set of stock measurements that will make for the highest % of successful shots. However, purpose of the shot may well require differing sets of dimensions; skeet gun vs trap gun. Like wise, sets of dynamic factors will/may vary for differing shot purposes.
DDA
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 13,165 Likes: 1155
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 13,165 Likes: 1155 |
Different guy. Similar moniker.
Not to worry. No, same guy. Weird. SRH
May God bless America and those who defend her.
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 4,038 Likes: 48
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 4,038 Likes: 48 |
Having handled thousands of shotguns over the years, I have come to a less scientific view, but one that is born out by experience. A well handling gun will have most of the mass of each and every part towards the middle of the assembled gun.
To make it clearer. Find a gun that handles, well, one that does not resist your movements when you shoulder it. Disasemble it and hold each part, ie barrels, action and forend at the places where the hands normally go when the gun is assembled. Held in such a way each part will tip towards the centre of the gun when assembled.
I have tried this with hundreds of guns and it has proven true.
I think we are talking about the same thing though not in the same terms.
And yes, the action type is not a main factor in handling. Though I do understand what Powell is getting at.
The best handling shotguns I have come across are quality British single barrels, mostly hammer, though there have been a couple of one sided sidelocks. I thought the handling might be due to thinness of the barrels, but all had barrel wall thickness over 35 thou and all had barrel length of over 28 inches.
Must be a computer thing.
"The price of good shotgunnery is constant practice" - Fred Kimble
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Joined: May 2015
Posts: 355 Likes: 10
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 355 Likes: 10 |
It's a British marketing term.
No more, no less.
People get all caught up in the terminology as if it means something.
This...precisely. It doesn't relate to any generally accepted standard. It was just a marketing term. Imagine 100 years from now a guy is showing his 2020-vintage BMW to someone, and the other says, "What was it that made this car so great back then?" And the guy responds, "Well, it was the ultimate driving machine." That's literally what we're talking about. A marketing term adopted to get 'men of means' to dig deeper into their pocket...so they could proudly tell their mates they "bought the best." NDG
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 13,165 Likes: 1155
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 13,165 Likes: 1155 |
Having handled thousands of shotguns over the years, I have come to a less scientific view, but one that is born out by experience. A well handling gun will have most of the mass of each and every part towards the middle of the assembled gun.
To make it clearer. Find a gun that handles, well, one that does not resist your movements when you shoulder it. Disasemble it and hold each part, ie barrels, action and forend at the places where the hands normally go when the gun is assembled. Held in such a way each part will tip towards the centre of the gun when assembled.
I have tried this with hundreds of guns and it has proven true.
I think we are talking about the same thing though not in the same terms.
And yes, the action type is not a main factor in handling. Though I do understand what Powell is getting at.
The best handling shotguns I have come across are quality British single barrels, mostly hammer, though there have been a couple of one sided sidelocks. I thought the handling might be due to thinness of the barrels, but all had barrel wall thickness over 35 thou and all had barrel length of over 28 inches.
Must be a computer thing. No, it's a senior moment thing. Even when you corrected me I still didn't see it. My apologies to you. Thanks for your patience. Best, SRH
May God bless America and those who defend her.
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 4,038 Likes: 48
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 4,038 Likes: 48 |
Never a problem. We actually agree on the point in question.
Threads do tend to drift, and this one rather got off topic.
Hope you have a splendid dove season Stan.
"The price of good shotgunnery is constant practice" - Fred Kimble
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