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#577412 - 08/09/20 06:36 PM Re: Early Model 12 Win/ 16 ga Question (OT) [Re: gil russell]
Shotgunjones Offline
Sidelock
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Registered: 02/16/03
Posts: 3805
RST shows 2 1/2" 16 gauge shells (A5) 1oz. at 1200FPS for $110/flat.

I wouldn't mess with cutting shells, roll crimping, etc. at that price.

Standard 16's are about that amount now... if you can find any.
_________________________
"The price of good shotgunnery is constant practice" - Fred Kimble

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#577519 - 08/11/20 08:52 AM Re: Early Model 12 Win/ 16 ga Question (OT) [Re: Drew Hause]
Run With The Fox Offline
Sidelock
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Registered: 05/16/08
Posts: 7152
Loc: Michigan
Sure, Drewbie-- between the Nickel Steel WRA used from about 1896 until the Winchester Proof Steel came on to the market in aprox. 1931 (same year the M21 was on the market) WRA had the Fubared Stainless Steel options for some of its rifle and shotgun offerings- The M54 rifle and the M12 shotgun. One of their greatest advertising blunders was the ils. of 2 deer hunters carrying a deceased buck deer on a pole in the rain-- "No need to clean your rifle right after the hunt" etc. BS. I clean whatever weapon I happen to be hunting with that day, whether I fire it or not. Old USMC mantra--

I am NOT by any means a metallurgist but as a life-long welder (ferrous and non-ferrous metals, TIG, MIG and SMAW) all positions, I know how to spark test ferrous metals. WPS is basically AISI 4140- Nickel based, with Chromium and Molybedendum as additives-- I have in my gun parts inventory, a 12 gauge 30" full M1912 barrel section from a muzzle obstructed bursting. As soon as I obtain a section from a post 1931 M12 marked WPS, I'll spark test them- using a clean medium grit wheel, to avoid contamination of the exemplars.

I believe WPS was a ploy used by WRA to overcome their marketing FUBAR with the U S Steel supplied Stainless barrels- see the Madis book on the M12 for more details, if you will.

You are, obviously, a highly educated person-I am not. But I daresay I was one of the handful of welders working the trade for many years (mainly power plant code welding on stainless piping systems) that was also a member of the AWS- and read each monthly issue religiously. RWTF
_________________________
When The Man In Black Comes Around- Rev: 6-8

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#577533 - 08/11/20 10:04 AM Re: Early Model 12 Win/ 16 ga Question (OT) [Re: gil russell]
Drew Hause Offline
Sidelock
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Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 8054
Loc: AZ but dreaming of KS
"WPS is basically AISI 4140- Nickel based, with Chromium and Molybedendum as additives"

Education comes from being willing to learn Francis; sometimes by (frequently painful wink ) experience, often times by research and reading. It is perfectly fine if you do don't wish to read the threads I linked, but it's not OK to make stuff up. You have confused 4340 with 4140.

AISI 4140 Chrome Moly
Carbon - 0.38 - 0.43%
Manganese - 0.75 - 1.0%
Nickel < .01%
Chromium - 0.8 - 1.1%
Molybdenum - 0.15 - 0.25%

AISI 4340 Chrome Moly Nickel
C - 0.38 - 0.43%
Mn - 0.6 - 0.8%
Nickel - 1.65 - 2.0%
Cr - 0.7 - 0.9%
Mo - 0.2 - 0.3%

The WPS I analyzed was non-standard 4135 with a low concentration of nickel (.09%).

The Winchester Nickel Steel was non-standard AISI 2340.

Please let us know the results of your 1931 M12 WPS barrel analysis.

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#577536 - 08/11/20 10:34 AM Re: Early Model 12 Win/ 16 ga Question (OT) [Re: gil russell]
Imperdix Offline
Sidelock

Registered: 10/20/19
Posts: 117
Loc: UK
What year did they change the 16g to accomodate longer cases ?

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#577541 - 08/11/20 11:24 AM Re: Early Model 12 Win/ 16 ga Question (OT) [Re: gil russell]
Lloyd3 Offline
Sidelock
**

Registered: 12/12/12
Posts: 1983
Loc: Parker, Colorado
If I remember correctly, it was somewhere near the 500,000 mark in the serial numbers, roughly 1927-28.

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#577544 - 08/11/20 11:59 AM Re: Early Model 12 Win/ 16 ga Question (OT) [Re: gil russell]
Imperdix Offline
Sidelock

Registered: 10/20/19
Posts: 117
Loc: UK
Thanks for that! I owned one for several years but at the time knowledge wasn`t easy to find !! Was a great gun to use and boy ,did it hit hard!!!

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#577546 - 08/11/20 12:35 PM Re: Early Model 12 Win/ 16 ga Question (OT) [Re: Lloyd3]
Geo. Newbern Offline
Sidelock
***

Registered: 01/02/02
Posts: 7350
Loc: Georgia, USA
Originally Posted By: Lloyd3
If I remember correctly, it was somewhere near the 500,000 mark in the serial numbers, roughly 1927-28.


Lloyd, you may be right about the serial number, but I don't think they went to exchangeable barrels until the '60s. I know my early 60's gun would not shoot with the later model barrel...Geo

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#577548 - 08/11/20 12:37 PM Re: Early Model 12 Win/ 16 ga Question (OT) [Re: gil russell]
Researcher Offline
Sidelock
***

Registered: 01/01/02
Posts: 5537
Loc: WA/AK
The 1925 Winchester catalog No. 83, 1925, still states the 16-gauge Model 12s are chambered for 2 9/16 inch shells and the 20-gauge Model 12s are chambered for 2 1/2 inch shells.

The next small catalog I have I can't find a date on but it is Form No. 980. On the Model 12 page it states "Constructed throughout of Nickel Steel..." Near the bottom they state "The 16 and 20 gauge guns are increasing in popularity at the present time with a large following of sportsmen who find that shooting with the smaller gauges adds much zest and keenness to their sport. The 20 gauge Model 12 is now chambered to handle standard 2 3/4 inch shells." No mention of the 16 gauge chambering.

Riffle states in his book, page 47, that during 1926 Winchester announced that the 16-gauge and 20-gauge chambers would be changed from 2 9/16 and 2 1/2 to 2 3/4. He gives the serial number range for 1926 as 423,057 to 464,564.

Stadt states in his book, page 106, that the 20-gauge was changed to 2 3/4 inch in 1925 and the 16-gauge to 2 3/4 inch in 1927.

The next catalog I have is July 1931, and states all gauges chambered for 2 3/4 inch shells. No mention of Nickel Steel, Stainless Steel or Winchester Proof Steel.

So, guess we can take our pick.

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#577558 - 08/11/20 05:29 PM Re: Early Model 12 Win/ 16 ga Question (OT) [Re: Imperdix]
Run With The Fox Offline
Sidelock
**

Registered: 05/16/08
Posts: 7152
Loc: Michigan
1927- according to Madis- 1930 according to Riffle. Problem is, the serial nos. for M1912-M12 shotguns in all gauges often overlapped from one year to another. The "ballpark" I use is the number 1,000,00- a 12 gauge Skeet gun presented to USAAF 3 star Gen Hap Arnold in 1942-- Hap believed in skeet as a good training for his fighter pilots and the gunners on the bombers as well. RWTF
_________________________
When The Man In Black Comes Around- Rev: 6-8

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#577579 - 08/12/20 08:19 AM Re: Early Model 12 Win/ 16 ga Question (OT) [Re: gil russell]
Run With The Fox Offline
Sidelock
**

Registered: 05/16/08
Posts: 7152
Loc: Michigan
Hi Gil- currently shooting farm area barn pigeons using up my stock of paper hulls- both 20 gauge WRA and 12 gauge Remington UMC. Saving the hulls for you if you need more to re-size them to a 2&1/2" length. The grits were great-thanks RWTF
_________________________
When The Man In Black Comes Around- Rev: 6-8

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