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Forums10
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Most Online1,131 Jan 21st, 2024
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 4,033 Likes: 45
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 4,033 Likes: 45 |
RST shows 2 1/2" 16 gauge shells (A5) 1oz. at 1200FPS for $110/flat.
I wouldn't mess with cutting shells, roll crimping, etc. at that price.
Standard 16's are about that amount now... if you can find any.
"The price of good shotgunnery is constant practice" - Fred Kimble
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 8,158 Likes: 114
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 8,158 Likes: 114 |
Sure, Drewbie-- between the Nickel Steel WRA used from about 1896 until the Winchester Proof Steel came on to the market in aprox. 1931 (same year the M21 was on the market) WRA had the Fubared Stainless Steel options for some of its rifle and shotgun offerings- The M54 rifle and the M12 shotgun. One of their greatest advertising blunders was the ils. of 2 deer hunters carrying a deceased buck deer on a pole in the rain-- "No need to clean your rifle right after the hunt" etc. BS. I clean whatever weapon I happen to be hunting with that day, whether I fire it or not. Old USMC mantra--
I am NOT by any means a metallurgist but as a life-long welder (ferrous and non-ferrous metals, TIG, MIG and SMAW) all positions, I know how to spark test ferrous metals. WPS is basically AISI 4140- Nickel based, with Chromium and Molybedendum as additives-- I have in my gun parts inventory, a 12 gauge 30" full M1912 barrel section from a muzzle obstructed bursting. As soon as I obtain a section from a post 1931 M12 marked WPS, I'll spark test them- using a clean medium grit wheel, to avoid contamination of the exemplars.
I believe WPS was a ploy used by WRA to overcome their marketing FUBAR with the U S Steel supplied Stainless barrels- see the Madis book on the M12 for more details, if you will.
You are, obviously, a highly educated person-I am not. But I daresay I was one of the handful of welders working the trade for many years (mainly power plant code welding on stainless piping systems) that was also a member of the AWS- and read each monthly issue religiously. RWTF
"The field is the touchstone of the man"..
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,398 Likes: 307
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,398 Likes: 307 |
"WPS is basically AISI 4140- Nickel based, with Chromium and Molybedendum as additives" Education comes from being willing to learn Francis; sometimes by (frequently painful ) experience, often times by research and reading. It is perfectly fine if you do don't wish to read the threads I linked, but it's not OK to make stuff up. You have confused 4340 with 4140. AISI 4140 Chrome Moly Carbon - 0.38 - 0.43% Manganese - 0.75 - 1.0% Nickel < .01%Chromium - 0.8 - 1.1% Molybdenum - 0.15 - 0.25% AISI 4340 Chrome Moly Nickel C - 0.38 - 0.43% Mn - 0.6 - 0.8% Nickel - 1.65 - 2.0% Cr - 0.7 - 0.9% Mo - 0.2 - 0.3% The WPS I analyzed was non-standard 4135 with a low concentration of nickel (.09%). The Winchester Nickel Steel was non-standard AISI 2340. Please let us know the results of your 1931 M12 WPS barrel analysis.
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Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 269 Likes: 56
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 269 Likes: 56 |
What year did they change the 16g to accomodate longer cases ?
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Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 3,063 Likes: 563
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 3,063 Likes: 563 |
If I remember correctly, it was somewhere near the 500,000 mark in the serial numbers, roughly 1927-28.
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Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 269 Likes: 56
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 269 Likes: 56 |
Thanks for that! I owned one for several years but at the time knowledge wasn`t easy to find !! Was a great gun to use and boy ,did it hit hard!!!
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,698 Likes: 99
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,698 Likes: 99 |
If I remember correctly, it was somewhere near the 500,000 mark in the serial numbers, roughly 1927-28. Lloyd, you may be right about the serial number, but I don't think they went to exchangeable barrels until the '60s. I know my early 60's gun would not shoot with the later model barrel...Geo
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,883 Likes: 106
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,883 Likes: 106 |
The 1925 Winchester catalog No. 83, 1925, still states the 16-gauge Model 12s are chambered for 2 9/16 inch shells and the 20-gauge Model 12s are chambered for 2 1/2 inch shells.
The next small catalog I have I can't find a date on but it is Form No. 980. On the Model 12 page it states "Constructed throughout of Nickel Steel..." Near the bottom they state "The 16 and 20 gauge guns are increasing in popularity at the present time with a large following of sportsmen who find that shooting with the smaller gauges adds much zest and keenness to their sport. The 20 gauge Model 12 is now chambered to handle standard 2 3/4 inch shells." No mention of the 16 gauge chambering.
Riffle states in his book, page 47, that during 1926 Winchester announced that the 16-gauge and 20-gauge chambers would be changed from 2 9/16 and 2 1/2 to 2 3/4. He gives the serial number range for 1926 as 423,057 to 464,564. Stadt states in his book, page 106, that the 20-gauge was changed to 2 3/4 inch in 1925 and the 16-gauge to 2 3/4 inch in 1927.
The next catalog I have is July 1931, and states all gauges chambered for 2 3/4 inch shells. No mention of Nickel Steel, Stainless Steel or Winchester Proof Steel.
So, guess we can take our pick.
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 8,158 Likes: 114
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 8,158 Likes: 114 |
1927- according to Madis- 1930 according to Riffle. Problem is, the serial nos. for M1912-M12 shotguns in all gauges often overlapped from one year to another. The "ballpark" I use is the number 1,000,00- a 12 gauge Skeet gun presented to USAAF 3 star Gen Hap Arnold in 1942-- Hap believed in skeet as a good training for his fighter pilots and the gunners on the bombers as well. RWTF
"The field is the touchstone of the man"..
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 8,158 Likes: 114
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 8,158 Likes: 114 |
Hi Gil- currently shooting farm area barn pigeons using up my stock of paper hulls- both 20 gauge WRA and 12 gauge Remington UMC. Saving the hulls for you if you need more to re-size them to a 2&1/2" length. The grits were great-thanks RWTF
"The field is the touchstone of the man"..
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