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#582139 - 10/16/20 01:41 PM Un-doing holes
rocky mtn bill Online   content
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Registered: 02/06/08
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Most of us have owned barrels that had holes put in them that should never have been there. What is the best approach now for making them go away?
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Bill Ferguson

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#582147 - 10/16/20 02:39 PM Re: Un-doing holes [Re: rocky mtn bill]
Geo. Newbern Offline
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Originally Posted By: rocky mtn bill
Most of us have owned barrels that had holes put in them that should never have been there. What is the best approach now for making them go away?


If you are talking about screw holes in the rib, then fill them with blank screws sized to fit. If it is holes in the barrels, like porting, they may can be filled but rust holes in the thin part of the barrel would mean sleeving to me...Geo

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#582149 - 10/16/20 02:53 PM Re: Un-doing holes [Re: rocky mtn bill]
rocky mtn bill Online   content
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Thanks, George. I should have said it's rifle barrels I'm discussing here. The holes are for sights or scope blocks.
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#582151 - 10/16/20 03:27 PM Re: Un-doing holes [Re: rocky mtn bill]
Geo. Newbern Offline
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Originally Posted By: rocky mtn bill
Thanks, George. I should have said it's rifle barrels I'm discussing here. The holes are for sights or scope blocks.


Blank screws then. Several of mine have them...Geo

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#582152 - 10/16/20 03:31 PM Re: Un-doing holes [Re: rocky mtn bill]
Geo. Newbern Offline
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Originally Posted By: rocky mtn bill
Thanks, George. I should have said it's rifle barrels I'm discussing here. The holes are for sights or scope blocks.


Blank screws then. I guess you could then weld over them but that seems like overkill to me...Geo

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#582153 - 10/16/20 03:32 PM Re: Un-doing holes [Re: rocky mtn bill]
rocky mtn bill Online   content
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Yes, but I don't want to just fill them; I want them to disapppear.
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#582160 - 10/16/20 03:51 PM Re: Un-doing holes [Re: rocky mtn bill]
Der Ami Offline
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Bill,
The best way I have found is to drill a shallow depression( similar to counterbore) with a #28 drill, turn a 6-48 screw/w loctite in, let the loctite set up and cut the head off above the surface and peen the screw tightly into the counterbore; then file flush, polish to match. and blue to match. If you don't drill it( assuming a 6-48 hole), where the thread angle meets the surface will leave a small blemish. This is best for me, because I'm not the best welder in the world, and it leaves a smaller area to re-finish anyway.
Mike


Edited by Der Ami (10/16/20 06:53 PM)

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#582164 - 10/16/20 04:01 PM Re: Un-doing holes [Re: Der Ami]
SKB Online   content
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Registered: 12/31/01
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I use the same method as Mike when I do not weld them, works well.
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#582165 - 10/16/20 04:27 PM Re: Un-doing holes [Re: rocky mtn bill]
BrentD Offline
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I've had some holes welded. Some are better than others. The best are truely invisible and it takes a magician to do it so that the holes do not reappear when blued or cased.
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#582176 - 10/16/20 11:32 PM Re: Un-doing holes [Re: rocky mtn bill]
Kutter Offline
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Registered: 02/05/02
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Here's a damaged factory rear sight dovetail made to disappear on a customized Savage 3B .22
No welding, just simple tools and techniques.






I cut the filler block a bit small for the dovetail here. But left it plenty high enough. Initial hammering it into shape peened it into the dovetail. Then the excess was coarse filed away before the final peening was done to lock it tightly in place.
That small divot on one edge was left there, slightly deepened and dovetailed with chisels. The swaging process expands the filler block into that area to take care of it.
That's a usable technique when filling an odd shaped area. Push the filler plug around to fill the void instead of trying to make a plug to fit the odd shape of the void to begin with.



Filler expanded and peened solidly in place. Most of the excess filed off. Some left in place for final swaging.



Final swaging into place and rough shape before filing to shape and polishing. This is done with rapid hammer taps and not heavy blows of the hammer. Nothing is distorted on the bbl.
I use a 2oz ball peen hammer, my 'do everything' bench hammer for the work using a few different size flat nose punches.
Sometimes I use a slightly heavier hammer for the first few strikes to 'set' a piece into place.


Finish filed and I think about a 220polish to the area. The rest of the bbl was later polished, some engraving done and the bbl rust blued.


Welding was always hit and miss. Great when it worked, miserable when it didn't.
This is predictable. Blues over and blends in. I use it for screw holes, dovetails, heavy pits, ect.
Inlaying steel into steel is really not that difficult and that is what is done when filling heavy pit marks , dents, ect.
Cut out the bad area and dovetail the edges just like you would if inlaying gold or silver. Then inlay your piece of steel into the pocket.
You must be more careful in the fit of the inlay piece when it's steel than gold or silver.
Plus you must be extra careful when punching in down to swage it into place you absolutely don't hit the base metal,,just the plug. It takes a lot more force to swage the steel into place than gold or silver. Any misplaced hits onto the base metal will leave you with a lot of extra repairs to do along with the one you set out to accomplish!

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#582181 - 10/17/20 07:05 AM Re: Un-doing holes [Re: rocky mtn bill]
Stan Offline
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Registered: 01/03/02
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Absolutely priceless, Kutter. Thank you!

I have a Remington 870 barrel that came on a Wingmaster i recently bought, that has a 34" vent rib barrel. Pretty rare barrel, but damaged. Original owner drilled holes behind the muzzle to achieve a reduction in muzzle rise, like porting but done with a hand drill very sloppily. Probably 10-12 on each side of the rib.

I'd like to salvage that barrel. Is micro welding the best bet for it? Do you think a good micro-welder could get sufficient penetration to fill the holes all the way to the bore wall?

SRH
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#582188 - 10/17/20 09:19 AM Re: Un-doing holes [Re: rocky mtn bill]
rocky mtn bill Online   content
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Registered: 02/06/08
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Kutter, Thanks. I wouldn't have thought that 22 barrel was possible. Is there danger of pushing a dent into the bore? Also. do you enlarge the opening of a screw hole as Der Ami suggests?
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#582189 - 10/17/20 09:46 AM Re: Un-doing holes [Re: rocky mtn bill]
82nd Trooper Offline
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Registered: 03/19/19
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Great post Kutter. You like many on these forums could be writing books on this subject matter.

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#582191 - 10/17/20 10:30 AM Re: Un-doing holes [Re: rocky mtn bill]
craigd Online   content
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Registered: 02/18/09
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Thanks also Kutter for sharing the comments and the great picture sequence. Would you have any quick thoughts on what filler steel type or types to consider on an obsolete arm for finish matching?

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#582197 - 10/17/20 02:14 PM Re: Un-doing holes [Re: rocky mtn bill]
Der Ami Offline
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Registered: 07/04/12
Posts: 3563
Loc: East Alabama
Bill,
The idea is not so much to enlarge the hole as to remove the area of the thread, where it "runs out" and the screw would finish to a razor's edge. This little edge almost always breaks off, so you can see it it you look closely. Try one on a piece of scrap, and you will see what I mean. It might work with a #30 drill, I just use the clearance drill to be sure.
Mike

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#582205 - 10/18/20 08:55 AM Re: Un-doing holes [Re: rocky mtn bill]
rocky mtn bill Online   content
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Registered: 02/06/08
Posts: 1725
Loc: MT
Der Ami, thanks for that clarifcation.
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Bill Ferguson

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#582211 - 10/18/20 09:51 AM Re: Un-doing holes [Re: rocky mtn bill]
Mike Hunter Offline
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Registered: 12/17/08
Posts: 271
Kutter, awesome post, and awesome work…thank you.
Extra holes are the nightmare for restorers, especially screw holes.

Here’s sort of a rundown of issues that I run into when dealing with holes, especially on barrels.

Most screws (especially gun screws) are made out of 12L14, it has lead added for increased machinability. 12L14 will not weld well, due to the lead, lots of porosity, especially with TIG. 12l14 also rusts quicker than any steel that I know of.

I once had a receiver with a couple of extra holes That I plugged and peened, then the receiver was nickel plated. The repair showed up about a year later, the seam between the base metal and plug had gotten some sort of contamination in there started rusting under the plating.

Screw holes inherently have a lot of crap in threads, and will eventually leak/leach out around the seams. It also provides an excellent source of contamination when TIG welding. If I’m plugging a screw hole, I always drill it out to remove the threads.

Most barrels made prior to 1900 were made out of mild steel fairly close to 1018/20. Many barrels, especially smokeless barrels made after 1930 were made out of 4140, different steels. Really need to plug with like materials.

Welding a plug into 4140 presents its own challenges. Most will take a piece f cold rolled steel and use that to plug a hole. Unfortunately, 4140 and 1018 are different steels, and will take bluing differently, 1018 will tend to be darker when blued. The other issue is the HAZ or Heat Affected Zone when welding. 4140 is a thru hardening steel, 1018 is a case hardening steel, not enough inherent carbon to self-harden. When welded, the 41 series steel will be hard, the 1018 steel will be soft. This HAZ, will not only show up when blued, but also when polished. Using the same grit, the softer steel will show the polishing lines more prominently than the hardened HAZ area.

I have found using like steels when plug/welding really helps, and on parts that can be.. annealed after welding to remove the HAZ. But in the case of barrels… nearly impossible.
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Mike Hunter
www.mikehunterrestorations.com

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#582289 - 10/19/20 08:32 AM Re: Un-doing holes [Re: rocky mtn bill]
battle Offline
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Registered: 06/23/02
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Loc: Versailles
Kutter…

Damn good work.

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#582332 - 10/19/20 10:49 PM Re: Un-doing holes [Re: Kutter]
Craigster Offline
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Registered: 07/30/08
Posts: 419
Loc: humboldt
Amazing work there, Kutter.

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