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From what I saw prices were very low. Now I have bot looked at the American / European guns but the English guns seemed to continue on a downward spiral.
Any comments?


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The pair of Purdey's (vintage 1929) with 30 inch barrels of excellent wall thickness and restocked to beautiful wood with 15"LPP that sold for 30 grand plus buyers fee demonstrates all that you had to say; not to mention that the David Sinnerton (two pairs) of 20 bores did not sell--the single 20 bore did.

I would like to know who owns those Sinnerton guns and put them up for sale. I doubt that he has made more than 20 guns in his name.

The jewel of the sale was the Watson Bros. O/U with Ken Hunt game scene engraving.

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I wonder just how big the market for matched pairs really is, and surmise that it's shrinking all the time, maybe at a faster rate than for single vintage doubles. If I'm right, lower prices for them are to be expected rather than be a surprise, Purdey's or not.

SRH


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From what I understand right now the economy in GB is much more depressed than ours is. Covid shutdown has hurt a lot of people here and there. Is there even going to be any driven shoots this year?

And demand for side by sides is in free fall for all but the best. Look at the prices on box locks. Our field grade guns were 500--1000 five years ago while in GB they were that much or greater. I see a lot of field grade guns listed for sale there for 100-200 pounds. Half or a third of what they were five years ago. And I do not see a bottom in that market.

Five years ago Holt's Auction would have almost every gun go for the high estimate or more. Last several auctions a lot of stock went unsold and more stuff just made the minimum estimate. Is it the economy, declining interest in side by sides in their market and the increasing cost of importing guns? All three I think. Several guns I have bought cost as much to ship as to buy. Even combined, they cost is reasonable if you choose wisely.

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Here in the GB the market for s/s guns is dead in reality,younger people mainly come into shooting via clays and are only interested in O/U guns,usually wanting new rather than s/h.
The shooting press compound the situation by promoting heavy load cartridges for game shooting which are totally unnecessary for the type of birds most people here shoot but boosts the ego of the tyros!!!!
You must have 30" minimum barrels and 11/8-11/4oz of 4 shot nowadays,despite most people still shooting 15-30 yard birds!!!
It is a puzzling situation we have arrived at........

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A further factor to add to those already mentioned that may be playing a part in decreasing prices for British side by sides here in the UK is the ongoing phasing out of lead shot and its perceived limitations in a 2 1/2 inch chambered twelve bore.This perception may change with the development of 2 1/2 inch steel and bismuth /tin /zinc cartridges . In the majority of walk and stand shoots a 30 yard bird is a good bird which is within the capability of the the new non lead cartridges.
It may also be the case that dealers are loathe to add to their stock while the economic effect of the Covid pandemic is unclear.
While it is true you can get a better value side by side for your money than an over and under, especially if you shop privately rather than through the trade ,I do not see vast amounts of good quality side by sides at ridiculously low prices..
As Imperdix says younger shots and those entering the sport having first shot clays tend to buy an over and under as their first gun with the result that average condition average priced predominantly Spanish side by sides are trading at lower prices.
Bargains can be had when people who bought a nice side by side and have maintained their gun well ,perhaps having shot on few occasions ,decide to retire from the field and and decide not to renew their shotgun certificate. As a result some nice old English boxed boxlock ejectors are put on the market where there is no huge demand and the prices achieved reflect that.

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Stan, there is only one thing better than a Purdey is two Purdeys.


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Originally Posted By: PALUNC
Stan, there is only one thing better than a Purdey is two Purdeys.


I'm not so sure. I'd raise you one Purdey and a Holland - or maybe a Dickson. smile

But a pair of Purdeys would certainly be a strong hand.


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A David McKay Brown round action ,side by side and over and under, and a MacNaughton bar in wood ordered from John Dickson would be a nice mix of practical and elegant.

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There appears to be some money in the Amoskeag auction this morning. Billinghurst muzzleloaders went for decent money so far and a 4 bore H&H just sold for $6k but that seems maybe a little low. I'm not sure how to evaluate that one.


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Originally Posted By: PALUNC
Stan, there is only one thing better than a Purdey is two Purdeys.


I have noticed that quite often one of the pair is in fabulous condition compared to the other. If a pair is so much better, why are they seldom worn equally?

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Originally Posted By: Stan
I wonder just how big the market for matched pairs really is, and surmise that it's shrinking all the time, maybe at a faster rate than for single vintage doubles. If I'm right, lower prices for them are to be expected rather than be a surprise, Purdey's or not.

SRH


The discussion and its ultimate issue is the value that a shooter or two shooters could have had in buying the pair of Purdeys noted on the Morphy auction--not how big or small the market is for pairs of best quality English guns. These Purdeys apparently sold for $30,750.00 plus 20% fee for a total price of $36,900.00 or $18,450.00 each. At the same time Graham MacKinlay has a similar pair of Purdeys made one year later for sale at his shop in Scotland for $63,175,00 or $31,587.50 each.

It is not rocket science to see the value if a couple of "good ole boys" who wanted to own a good condition Purdey went in together and bought such a pair that sold for such a bargain at Morphy's.

Now these Purdey's at Morphy's need to be sent over to the UK and chambered and proofed for 2 3/4" and even when you do that and pay for it, the two "good ole boys" would have guns that were at least $10,000.00 of real value in their hands versus what they would have had to pay in the UK. It is interesting to note that the Graham MacKinlays Purdey's are 2 1/2 inch chambers as well and need rechambering and reproof to my mind.

This is where the REAL value of buying pairs are in the market just now, and it is not just now, now, as I remember sitting on the sofa at the late Cyril Adams home 15 years ago and talking about how the real value of English pairs in the USA was selling them individually then.

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Buying a pair at auction with the intention of selling one on at a later date could be a way of acquiring a single gun at a favourable price I have heard of three matching guns being bought at auction one of which is sold to finance work on the other two.

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Not every pair is made simultaneously.
If you want book matched stocks, absolutely identical handling, and you can afford it, then order a pair.

I think Desirability Is a function of expected use as well, If you plan on Double gunning, then it's much Smoother with two identical firearms.

Everybody views this differently, but when the Red grouse are streaming down the hill, or gray partridges are absolutely exploding over the hedges, (and you can shoot all you want while the torrent lasts) It's a pretty special feeling to be using a matched pair.

It's not the American way, so it's less of a concern here.


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The days of double gunning on grey partridge over English hedgerows are long gone. The GWCT quotes BTO figures of a 91% reduction from 1967 to 2010.
There may still be opportunities to double gun on french red legs but a team of single guns should be able to amass a number of birds that would satisfy anyones desire for a large bag.
A handful of estates may offer grey partridge shooting but days will be few ,bags will be small and days are probably private affairs not commercial.
Do you use your high pheasant 20s on the grouse and partridge?and have you had the chokes opened up for obvious reasons.

Thanks for the PM ClapperZapper you are an enthusiastic game shot for sure. Sorry that Covid has disrupted your plans for this season.

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Originally Posted By: bushveld
The pair of Purdey's (vintage 1929) with 30 inch barrels of excellent wall thickness and restocked to beautiful wood with 15"LPP that sold for 30 grand plus buyers fee demonstrates all that you had to say; not to mention that the David Sinnerton (two pairs) of 20 bores did not sell--the single 20 bore did.

I would like to know who owns those Sinnerton guns and put them up for sale. I doubt that he has made more than 20 guns in his name.

The jewel of the sale was the Watson Bros. O/U with Ken Hunt game scene engraving.


For me, the jewel of the sale was the Bertuzzi gull wing which sold for $64.5k vs estimate of $60-$90k. Well out of my league but it is fun to pretend winning a huge lottery.

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If I am to believe what I am seeing with English Best gun prices the ones I own has decreased in value by at least 25%.
That is a hard pill to swallow.
I suppose the Vintage crowd getting older and lack of interest from new younger buyers. Plus the covid shutting down all the vintage shoots.
I can only surmise my coffin will be very heavy


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Originally Posted By: PALUNC
If I am to believe what I am seeing with English Best gun prices the ones I own has decreased in value by at least 25%.
That is a hard pill to swallow.
I suppose the Vintage crowd getting older and lack of interest from new younger buyers. Plus the covid shutting down all the vintage shoots.
I can only surmise my coffin will be very heavy


I'm fortunate in that I sold most of my valuable English doubles a few years back. I have two left that I use from time to time and at some point I will send them off to auction with a tear in my eye and get whatever the market bears.

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Originally Posted By: PALUNC
If I am to believe what I am seeing with English Best gun prices the ones I own has decreased in value by at least 25%.
That is a hard pill to swallow.


It is hard to say this without coming across as callous, and I don't mean to Mike, but did you really expect otherwise, going in? If so, wasn't that expectation a bit unrealistic?

I have a rather large amalgamation of doubles. I never bought a one of them with any thought as to what they would be worth if, and when, I decide I don't want them anymore. I bought them to use, and enjoy.

This is not unlike watching interest rates. Those who have lots of cash invested bemoan low rates. Those who borrow to leverage those funds into other investments, like land, love low interest. In comparison some, who bought in with the "investment attitude", and who are reaching their "winter" in life, and own Bosses and Woodwards bemoan the doublegun market. Those who are hoping to buy their first one watch with eager anticipation. I'm pretty much nonchalant.

Best to you, SRH


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Originally Posted By: bushveld
Originally Posted By: Stan
I wonder just how big the market for matched pairs really is, and surmise that it's shrinking all the time, maybe at a faster rate than for single vintage doubles. If I'm right, lower prices for them are to be expected rather than be a surprise, Purdey's or not.

SRH


The discussion and its ultimate issue is the value that a shooter or two shooters could have had in buying the pair of Purdeys noted on the Morphy auction--not how big or small the market is for pairs of best quality English guns. These Purdeys apparently sold for $30,750.00 plus 20% fee for a total price of $36,900.00 or $18,450.00 each. At the same time Graham MacKinlay has a similar pair of Purdeys made one year later for sale at his shop in Scotland for $63,175,00 or $31,587.50 each.

It is not rocket science to see the value if a couple of "good ole boys" who wanted to own a good condition Purdey went in together and bought such a pair that sold for such a bargain at Morphy's.

Now these Purdey's at Morphy's need to be sent over to the UK and chambered and proofed for 2 3/4" and even when you do that and pay for it, the two "good ole boys" would have guns that were at least $10,000.00 of real value in their hands versus what they would have had to pay in the UK. It is interesting to note that the Graham MacKinlays Purdey's are 2 1/2 inch chambers as well and need rechambering and reproof to my mind.

This is where the REAL value of buying pairs are in the market just now, and it is not just now, now, as I remember sitting on the sofa at the late Cyril Adams home 15 years ago and talking about how the real value of English pairs in the USA was selling them individually then.


And just what percentage of the gun market bulls fit into that category, bushveld, of those who can find a friend who also wants a doublegun EXACTLY like the one they want, and are willing to part with that much cash to have it? I don't know, either, but can accurately estimate that it is minuscule. I stand by my original point that the market for matched pairs is dwindling ..........steadily.

SRH


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Regarding auction house guns: Don't forget the up to 25% auction house bump, VAT for UKers; and import fees and shipping for USA buyers which don't pay VAT. Gil

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To my mind is a fact that the market for matched pairs of best quality English guns is dwindling and it has been that way for years.

The discussion is the value that a shooter or two shooters could have in buying THE pair of Purdey's specifically at the Morphy auction as I outlined.

$18,000.00 is not much money this day and time when the asking price on a high end F-150 is $75,000.00.

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Quality will always have a market. But average condition, used box locks just seem to have little market these days. It comes down to who is buying and what they want. It is O/U there and O/U or semi autos here. I suspect it is the same thing here on handguns, wheel guns or out of fashion while semi autos are the rage with young shooters.

Markets change, needs change, taste change, what does not change is the seller wants more and the buyer want to pay less. Anyone who bought guns as an investments has seen most of his profits go up in smoke.

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As a newer double gun collector, I am very happy to see low prices. The lower, the better. When buying, its great to buy when the market for anything is down. Sell when the market is hot. Or, keep your assets for too long and grumble about low prices. As someone in mostly buying mode, I would very much like for the market to continue going down.

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Originally Posted By: Konor3inch
A David McKay Brown round action ,side by side and over and under, and a MacNaughton bar in wood ordered from John Dickson would be a nice mix of practical and elegant.


We have a winner!


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Originally Posted By: Stan
Originally Posted By: PALUNC
If I am to believe what I am seeing with English Best gun prices the ones I own has decreased in value by at least 25%.
That is a hard pill to swallow.


It is hard to say this without coming across as callous, and I don't mean to Mike, but did you really expect otherwise, going in? If so, wasn't that expectation a bit unrealistic?

I have a rather large amalgamation of doubles. I never bought a one of them with any thought as to what they would be worth if, and when, I decide I don't want them anymore. I bought them to use, and enjoy.

This is not unlike watching interest rates. Those who have lots of cash invested bemoan low rates. Those who borrow to leverage those funds into other investments, like land, love low interest. In comparison some, who bought in with the "investment attitude", and who are reaching their "winter" in life, and own Bosses and Woodwards bemoan the doublegun market. Those who are hoping to buy their first one watch with eager anticipation. I'm pretty much nonchalant.

Best to you, SRH



Stan, while I think you have rather more doubles than I, you seem to approach things as I do. I feel like I never really have a dog in this fight. And I won't care when I'm dead. I don't and won't have a wife to look after, my child won't need my help at that point and if it all goes perfectly, I'll give them all away the day before I die.


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Bravo Messieurs. Exactly the sentiment here. Don't love anything that can't love you back. I shoot my guns...and they still are nice to look at.

There's nothing more depressing than going to an estate sale and finding scuba gear unused for 25 years, old golf clubs (mind I'm still hitting my 1989 Ping-eye beryllium-copper irons today), 1960's law books, etc. Weeding should be a pre-requisite as we get on ... I gave up on collecting years ago when I disposed of my BSA Gold-Star DBD-34 single 500cc parts and frames. But I do have far too many 19th century books on Central Asia.

I remember a few years ago emptying out my Father's house....I had to give the drill press to charity....darn it...I could have used that had Dad given it to me a couple of years before...I didn't have the transportation to get it back to DC.

Still.... SxS's are pass for the moment. But they are just so beautiful....my Daughter-in-law cannot let go of her 16 gauge Gerest-Berthon - that there will always be an art-form niche for them.


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USA auction prices on good side by sides are still more than we would pay. Unfortunately for the sellers, the difference between "more than we would pay" and what the sellers receive is approaching fifty percent, if all expenses are added in.

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I would like to hear some feedback on my one comment. Thanks.

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Originally Posted By: Argo44
Bravo Messieurs. Exactly the sentiment here. Don't love anything that can't love you back. I shoot my guns...and they still are nice to look at.

There's nothing more depressing than going to an estate sale and finding scuba gear unused for 25 years, old golf clubs (mind I'm still hitting my 1989 Ping-eye beryllium-copper irons today), 1960's law books, etc. Weeding should be a pre-requisite as we get on ... I gave up on collecting years ago when I disposed of my BSA Gold-Star DBD-34 single 500cc parts and frames. But I do have far too many 19th century books on Central Asia.

I remember a few years ago emptying out my Father's house....I had to give the drill press to charity....darn it...I could have used that had Dad given it to me a couple of years before...I didn't have the transportation to get it back to DC.

Still.... SxS's are pass for the moment. But they are just so beautiful....my Daughter-in-law cannot let go of her 16 gauge Gerest-Berthon - that there will always be an art-form niche for them.


Gene, don't feel bad. I still use my beryllium-copper Ram irons I pulled out of stock in 1989 (I was in the golf business....Canadian distributor for Ram at the time). The fact they are more that 30 years old is not part of why my scores are what they are. LOL


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Originally Posted By: eightbore
I would like to hear some feedback on my one comment. Thanks.


If hammer prices were what one paid, I might be more inclined to frequent auctions. But as that is not how it works, I look for my next gun elsewhere.

That's all I got. LOL


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Wheel guns outta fashion. Maybe so, but my Python 7" barrel, custom shop circa 1968 ish- and Dad's older Detective Special Snubbie are my mainstays- although I have a .45ACP Combat Commander, all defensive weapons-and 100% dead reliable. One talking point on wheelguns, even a S&W Dirty Harry .44 Mag- no springs are under tension, outside hammer gives a great trigger pull in single action mode, and an evil-doer in a CQC scenario can see the bullet tips in the cylinder- he has to know (unless he is coked out of his mind) that you have a loaded piece pointed at his "wind and water" sector-and the outcome of his confrontation might spell the end of his nefarious criminal career-RWTF


"The field is the touchstone of the man"..
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Is there room in the front end of a 44 or 45 caliber bullet for a small laser light? I once faced off a criminal with a K-22. He kept advancing until I pointed the gun at full arm's length right at his eye. A larger bullet face at the front of the cylinder would have stopped him quicker. Thanks, Foxy.

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Originally Posted By: eightbore
Is there room in the front end of a 44 or 45 caliber bullet for a small laser light? I once faced off a criminal with a K-22. He kept advancing until I pointed the gun at full arm's length right at his eye. A larger bullet face at the front of the cylinder would have stopped him quicker. Thanks, Foxy.


You sure you're not Joe Biden in disguise....

That is about the gun' dumbest thing I've ever read....a laser light inside a bullet you say.

Gun Dumbest award for 2020 goes to you.




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It is even worse for those of us who collect highly specialized and esoteric items of interest to few others. My collection of Chinese firecracker packs and labels is a case in point. Don't wish to burden my kids with it, so maybe best thing is to donate to charity and hope they have the expertise to make some money selling the items or the whole collection. Museums or foundations would be the only places where the collection might be kept intact. Hate to see it all go to the dumpground.

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Hal, the New Year's Eve relieving us from the year 2020 would be a good time to take your collection out with a "Bang!"...Geo

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Getting the thread back on track...Those concerned about the demise of the fine English double can perhaps take heart in the following article from Diggory regarding the September auctions in England. All is not doom and gloom.

Vintage Guns UK auction article

Note in particular the reference to the high quality, non-big 3 sales such as William and Co and Symes & Wright.


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Good question, Bill. There might well be, well worth researching- similar perhaps to the "spot-shot" lites touted for use in indoor practice for "Move-Mount-Shoot" drills I would guess. A neighbor, retired State Trooper, told me he had emptied his Glock, when another bad guy entered in the fight, and Al bluffed him, somehow making the perp back down and drop his knife-- I asked him if he had stopped to buy a lottery ticket afterwards-RWTF


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Auction houses are doing well as many people are forced to by age or decide by life choices to sell off their wares. Since the house has nothing invested and their fees seem to be ever increasing, they will make money with every sale regardless of what price is realized. What I wonder is how few buyers entering the market will keep prices steady.

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Originally Posted By: Run With The Fox
Good question, Bill. There might well be, well worth researching- similar perhaps to the "spot-shot" lites


Looks like Eightbore might have some competition....

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It's time to face reality

The vast majority of people under 65 in the United States with disposable cash have a firm conviction that shooting birds is ugly, cruel and barbaric. They would gladly see hunting banned and most of them have a strong antipathy towards guns of all kind.

I am an exception insofar as I am a professional in my early 60's and I like guns. And even though I don't hunt it does not bother me that others do.

Several years ago I bought a very nice original condition field grade 12 gauge Winchester 21 for about $2,700 to round out my Winchester accumulation: Model 70 rifle, Model 97 riot gun and Model 21 SXS.



But that Model 21 scratched my itch for a vintage SXS, and I cannot see myself paying upwards of $3,000 for any vintage double, especially in a falling market with no bottom in sight.

On the other hand, two years ago I was delighted to spend just under $400 for a magnificent Remington 17:

and last week I got an excellent 20. gauge Remington 31 for the princely sum of $690.

Last edited by Bushmaster; 12/03/20 02:03 PM.
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Another uplifting link for those discouraged by the market for fine English guns from Nick Holt:

Nick Holt Sept 2020 Auction

A few statistics from the sale:

Reserve 1.1M Sterling
Hammer 1.5M sterling
84% sell-thru
68% First time bidders

Now that last statistic is probably the most hopeful. New buyers coming into the fine gun market for the first time is what the trade needs. I find that quite encouraging.


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I have quite a few new clients that are importing guns for the first time, a surprising number actually. While my overhead has skyrocketed due to increased freight costs, things have still been profitable due to the increased volume. I think the fine gun market was in need of a correction, sales remain strong on high quality items but at a decreased dollar amount while average condition/quality items really need to be priced to move in this market.


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Nothing quite like the smell of rOtten fish....

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Originally Posted By: HomelessjOe
Nothing quite like the smell of rOtten fish....


Then take a shower Bozo.


http://www.bertramandco.com/
Booking African hunts, firearms import services

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