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That Custom Built means nothing without the letter. Thats faked too. Do you have any idea who has the capability to make these things? Go buy it Replacement or MrCrocket. If its a real Win its a bargain at what they are asking. crazy


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The "related products" scroll beneath the gun in question is eye-popping. 12 gauge, after 12 gauge, after 12 gauge...$7,000. I'm flabbergasted.

My personal opinion is that the party for doubles isn't ending...it already ended. Will there always be a market for mid-grade and up guns with condition? Or sub-gauges? Of course. But I continue to be amazed at the number of guns out there that are not unique, rare, or difficult to find...that are priced as they are.

12 gauge Parker VH's are like the stars, they made 25k of that very SAME gun...yet the market can support $2,500-$3,500 on these things?

It's the low end that is going to get utterly devastated, because the low grade guns seem the most over-valued relative to their rarity. My guess is this is driven by people who want to own a name, but can't afford to pay beyond a certain point. So they chase lower grade guns so they can say that they own one (VH Parker/Sterlingworth/Fox A).

They're good guns, that's not at issue. It's...at what price? I just think over-paying for a Cadillac Cimarron just to say you "bought a Cadillac" will not ultimately hold up in a world where very few gents under the age of 40 cares about these guns. I absolutely understand over-paying for a condition DHE 16 gauge because you really want one, that's a different story.

Not sure what prompted me to say all this...din't do it to start a fire, just food for thought on 'not rare' low grade doubles. Sort of off topic from the OP though, I hate to admit to being a "thread jacker." *S*

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I can't imagine anyone here buying that gun after the trashing it has taken on this thread. I, like Buzz, personally think it is a great gun at that price, and would consider it if it had some choke and maybe about three fewer gold inlays. And, good grief, Charlie Brown, a recoil pad on a 7 1/2 pound .410? Oh, well.

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Eightbore, a long dead friend use to say pimps need guns too. Perhaps he was thinking about this gun. Gold inlays do little for me and the cheap ones Browning use to put on their guns and the Japanese model 12 were the worst. Best thing to do was hope they fell out. wink



Last edited by KY Jon; 12/01/20 03:59 PM.
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Originally Posted By: buzz
That Custom Built means nothing without the letter. Thats faked too. Do you have any idea who has the capability to make these things? Go buy it Replacement or MrCrocket. If its a real Win its a bargain at what they are asking. crazy

They do have one .410 listed with a winchester museum letter and a letter from the engraver for 65k! Seems kinda high. Nothing about a letter for the skeet gun. I see your point (does custom built by winchester sound kinda cheesy?). They do make csmc model 21s there with the tooling from the last company that made win 21s and they don't call them winchesters, which was kind of my original point.

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Winchester engraved the top ribs Custom Built By Winchester on their custom grades and those from the custom shop. Nothing cheesy about that. Whats cheesy is engraving that on a top rib on a gun NOT produced by Winchester. Cheesy equates to fraud in that case imho.


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For the Experts on the Forum, What does Custom Built Winchester on the rib mean?

Custom Shop gun? Maybe, depends on when it was manufactured, before 1968, there was no Custom Shop, only Custom Built shotguns.
As to value, thats established when money changes hands.
The particular M21 is not a catalogued Model with standard choices of engraving but a Custom Order I have never seen.
I have had a number of dealings with Tony and own a CSMC Grand American Baby Frame M21 in 28 ga and a Fox DE Special 16 ga made for me as well as other CSMC models made for me. A number of individuals who fancy themselves experts and collectors, put their noses in the air when they are mentioned.
If one wants an original Winchester M21 410, and particularly that gun then you have to pay the price and that price is $20K. A CSMC Baby Frame M21 which will weigh about 5# 13 oz starts at around $20.
-Richard


Last edited by Dick_dup1; 12/09/20 12:31 PM.
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There are people out there that can duplicate any gun, any engraving any lettering, the only thing is the serial number that confirms it. Most gun companies had records of the serial numbers and what was ordered on them. I'm sure on a high graded gun as this there is some information and not just a serial number. If that is the case Buyer Beware.


David


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Originally Posted By: Dick_dup1
For the Experts on the Forum, What does Custom Built Winchester on the rib mean?

Custom Shop gun? Maybe, depends on when it was manufactured, before 1968, there was no Custom Shop, only Custom Built shotguns.
As to value, thats established when money changes hands.
The particular M21 is not a catalogued Model with standard choices of engraving but a Custom Order I have never seen.
I have had a number of dealings with Tony and own a CSMC Grand American Baby Frame M21 in 28 ga and a Fox DE Special 16 ga made for me as well as other CSMC models made for me. A number of individuals who fancy themselves experts and collectors, put their noses in the air when they are mentioned.
If one wants an original Winchester M21 410, and particularly that gun then you have to pay the price and that price is $20K. A CSMC Baby Frame M21 which will weigh about 5# 13 oz starts at around $20.
-Richard

Custom Built Winchester was the nomenclature used when US Repeating Arms Company took over, conspicuously leaving out the word By for the Custom grades, otherwise said as Custom Built By Winchester. I guess thats what you are asking, Dick....and hopefully you are not trying to make a trick question since the meaning is apparently the same? Thanks.


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Could this be a custom made bOb Cash special E'dition ?

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