S |
M |
T |
W |
T |
F |
S |
|
1
|
2
|
3
|
4
|
5
|
6
|
7
|
8
|
9
|
10
|
11
|
12
|
13
|
14
|
15
|
16
|
17
|
18
|
19
|
20
|
21
|
22
|
23
|
24
|
25
|
26
|
27
|
28
|
29
|
30
|
|
|
|
|
|
Forums10
Topics38,444
Posts544,807
Members14,406
|
Most Online1,258 Mar 29th, 2024
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 157 Likes: 2
Sidelock
|
OP
Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 157 Likes: 2 |
Last edited by fishrising; 01/16/21 04:03 PM.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 5,532 Likes: 169
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 5,532 Likes: 169 |
Last edited by skeettx; 01/16/21 04:06 PM.
USAF RET 1971-95
|
1 member likes this:
fishrising |
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,410 Likes: 313
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,410 Likes: 313 |
Pre-1893 and likely pre-1891. Note forward of the "Laminated Steel" (the barrels are Twist) is the place where "Belgium" was usually marked. It was not until 1891 that the U.S. required the country of origin to be clearly marked on an imported gun. It does not carry Smokeless powder proof, which at that point was voluntary and would have been with "E.C." or "Schultze"
|
1 member likes this:
fishrising |
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 14,111 Likes: 195
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 14,111 Likes: 195 |
Whatever the experts tell you about this gun, it is an extremely high condition gun. Many early hammer guns that have not been shot in decades have seized up plungers. Break them loose with solvent and a plastic hammer and dismantle them and lubricate. Everything should work just fine.
|
1 member likes this:
fishrising |
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 14,111 Likes: 195
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 14,111 Likes: 195 |
Drew, are not these barrels different, left to right? Are both twist?
|
1 member likes this:
fishrising |
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 157 Likes: 2
Sidelock
|
OP
Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 157 Likes: 2 |
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,410 Likes: 313
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,410 Likes: 313 |
Both are (not well matched) Plain Twist Bill. And I agree very high condition. The chambers are likely 2 1/2 or 2 5/8", but were not marked in that time frame. The bore looks to be 18.2 mm = .7165" with R choke < .008" and likely cylinder Left muzzle constriction is 17.5 = .689 or .0275" choke = Imp. Mod.
If the bores and wall thicknesses check out should be a fun shooter! In light of the 130 year old wood I'd suggest 7/8 oz. at 1200 fps loads, which have been commercially available from Fiocchi and others; and nominal 2 3/4" Fiocchi loads tend to run about 2 5/8".
|
1 member likes this:
fishrising |
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,739 Likes: 97
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,739 Likes: 97 |
nice lookin ole gon...git some black powder loads an have sum fun...
keep it simple and keep it safe...
|
1 member likes this:
fishrising |
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 157 Likes: 2
Sidelock
|
OP
Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 157 Likes: 2 |
Thoughts of this being restored? Or does it appear in original condition? I can get some more pics of anything specific over the next few days when I get it chance.
It certainly seems original condition to me, but it also seems to “good (clean) to be true.”
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 735 Likes: 22
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 735 Likes: 22 |
That looks like original condition to me. Very nice. If the barrels are in good shape, no dents, bulges or deep pitting, I think low pressure smokeless would be fine. If you can, have someone measure the barrel wall thickness.
Last edited by Hammergun; 01/16/21 08:32 PM.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,775 Likes: 183
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,775 Likes: 183 |
Not saying that it is, but it resembles the early Scott - Daly's. Drew, the inspector's marks forward of the flats are letters surmounted by a Crown. Well made smokepole.
Serbus,
Raimey rse
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,775 Likes: 183
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,775 Likes: 183 |
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,739 Likes: 97
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,739 Likes: 97 |
keep it simple and keep it safe...
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,709 Likes: 474
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,709 Likes: 474 |
Looks to be original condition to me, not restored. Nice find. Unless a gun has family value it does not pay to restore a modestly priced gun like this one. Why put a thousand dollars into a $750.00 gun? Now if the gun was worth a thousand and it cost a thousand you could at least break even in the deal.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,410 Likes: 313
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,410 Likes: 313 |
What Raimey observed. Belgian bench test controller's (inspector's) personal marks used 1853-1877 were a smooth crown over the letter. After 1877, the inspector's mark was a star over a capital letter. Some marks are however spangled, and it is likely inspectors used what they had.
I agree original or very long ago restored. It is impossible to reproduce the aged appearance of the Twist barrels by recoloring.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,775 Likes: 183
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,775 Likes: 183 |
Yes, Drew, I see them mixed also. So the tubes may pre-date the 1877 change over after the Liège mechanics wore out their Crowned inspectors dies and commenced using their new spangled letter dies. But the tubes were utilized after the change-over, so maybe the tubes or longarm in the white experienced proof and the spangled letters were applied. Too, I've seen that odd >>7 1/2<< stamp near the forend hanger and I believe it was on pattern welded Remington doubles?
Serbus,
Raimey rse
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 15,456 Likes: 86
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 15,456 Likes: 86 |
Replaced forearm wood....the fit and finish is no doubt better than the original fit and finish of a lower quality gun like this.
I'm going with restored.
AARBC...Above average restored Belgium Clunker
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,739 Likes: 97
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,739 Likes: 97 |
keep it simple and keep it safe...
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 355 Likes: 10
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 355 Likes: 10 |
Whew...i have to say I have a hard time buying it being original like this after 150 years. A gun of this age...ANY gun...if original in this condition, should come with a story of how it remained that way, where it was, etc. The fact that it was lumped into a group sale with no further attribution gives me reasonable doubt.
As Drew said, it's tough to fake age on these Twist barrels, so they may have only seen a "0000 massage." But the rest...
Either way, a sweet gun if priced right. Certainly a lot more interesting on the clay course than yet another cookie cutter Beretta or Browning O/U. 🥱
The 7/8 Fiocchi "Trainers" are the ticket.
NDG
|
1 member likes this:
fishrising |
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,739 Likes: 97
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,739 Likes: 97 |
notice the sharp metal stamps...dont see that sharpness on redone metal...
keep it simple and keep it safe...
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 598 Likes: 30
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 598 Likes: 30 |
Just got a new Trader's Dispatch today and noticed an auction with a "J.B. Clement 10 ga double barrel exposed hammers" Also has an Eclipse and an L.C. Smith Hunter Arms Co., also with 'exposed hammers'. Auction is 25 Sept. near Sidney, MT. 406 480 2778. Guessing beat up ranch guns, but you never know.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 157 Likes: 2
Sidelock
|
OP
Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 157 Likes: 2 |
Been awhile with this gun. Got put in the safe and forgotten about. But thank you all again all! Now I’ve got 2 more questions: 1. The plungers are moving now. Are there supposed to be springs to either retract the firing pins once the gun is either fired or opened? And same question for the plungers? They move, but there is no resistance or anything to force them in a particular direction. I’m guessing no springs as such that I am asking about and the loading of shells and opening/closing of the gun will “manually” move the firing pins. But I don’t know. 2. Finally was able to get some flats of lower pressure 2 1/2” shells. I am using these for some of my older British doubles. What do you think of these in this gun? Not 7/8oz like some suggested. But the speed is in the range some suggested.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,410 Likes: 313
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,410 Likes: 313 |
If you would share the wall thickness at the end of the chambers (and confirm the length thereof), the forcing cone, 3", 6", 9", and 12", and the MWT and location we could provide meaningful (rather than hopeful) advice.
|
1 member likes this:
fishrising |
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 157 Likes: 2
Sidelock
|
OP
Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 157 Likes: 2 |
I don’t have anything to measure the barrel wall thickness. But…I am going to visit Mitch Schultz at Gunsmithing LTD tomorrow to see if he wants to take on some work for two of my other guns. Maybe I can pay him to measure the walls for me while I’m there.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 157 Likes: 2
Sidelock
|
OP
Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 157 Likes: 2 |
Dropped it off with Mitch at Gunsmithing LTD. He is going to measure it out for me. But his initial review was (1) the gun is a survivor and he thinks it’s all original, never refinished. (2) He thinks it will be fine to shoot lite loads in it, but again, is measuring just to have the extra confidence. Will get it back in a few weeks when my other gun work is done.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,023 Likes: 24
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,023 Likes: 24 |
jOe needs an eye exam. There's no way this gun is not original. But then, he's been wrong before.
Bill Ferguson
|
1 member likes this:
SKB |
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2021
Posts: 130 Likes: 21
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Jun 2021
Posts: 130 Likes: 21 |
RSTs should be fine pressure wise if the gunsmith gives the OK. Recoil is another matter. A one ounce shot load will recoil about 1/7th harder than a 7/8 oz shot load at the same velocity and will put 1/7th more stress on the head of the stock. If your gun weighs six pounds that might make a difference. If it weighs eight pounds, less so. How heavy is the gun?
Hodgson publishes recipes for 7/8 and even 3/4 oz 12 ga loads, if you load cartridges.
Nice gun. Have fun!
Caution: Hunting and fishing stories told here. Protective footgear may be required.
|
1 member likes this:
fishrising |
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,966 Likes: 293
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,966 Likes: 293 |
That looks like an original shotgun that’s just been sitting in a closet. Even the old oil is patinizing. All the surfaces tell me lack of use, not somebody’s been trying to change something.
I would not do anything to it.
Out there doing it best I can.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 15,456 Likes: 86
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 15,456 Likes: 86 |
Replaced forearm wood....the fit and finish is no doubt better than the original fit and finish of a lower quality gun like this.
I'm going with restored.
AARBC...Above average restored Belgium Clunker Checkering and wood fit and finish were the dead give away for me....look at the low quality metal work in comparison to the wood work. I stand by my first assessment.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,410 Likes: 313
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,410 Likes: 313 |
I believe jOe may be cOrrect
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 15,456 Likes: 86
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 15,456 Likes: 86 |
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 157 Likes: 2
Sidelock
|
OP
Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 157 Likes: 2 |
Got it back from Mitch, and he thinks it’s all original. He measured wall thickness told me it is good to go with RST lite shells…below is a pic of his work order supposedly measurements but I can’t decipher them.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2021
Posts: 130 Likes: 21
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Jun 2021
Posts: 130 Likes: 21 |
I see R .040 and L .035 in the "Notified" section. Barrel wall thickness? From your earlier post, it's not choke constriction. Looks like you're set for the season!
Caution: Hunting and fishing stories told here. Protective footgear may be required.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,087 Likes: 334
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,087 Likes: 334 |
Original in every way. Easy call. JR
Be strong, be of good courage. God bless America, long live the Republic.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 157 Likes: 2
Sidelock
|
OP
Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 157 Likes: 2 |
And used her today:
|
1 member likes this:
Carl46 |
|
|
|
|