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Copy and pastier' award of the year....

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==========================================================
28189 - (1886) - What a trade label can tell you about a gun


Terry Buffum sent this ebay advertisement for an EM Reilly leather case:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-leather-shotgun-case-by-E-M-Reilly-Co-London/303904492540?hash=item46c21e8bfc:g:FaoAAOSwp~RgPVLn
Edit". Case was pretty much dilapidated but with original labels - probably for a hammer gun..sold for $109....the labels alone would be worth something.

I sent this message back..and thanks Terry!!!

Many thanks Terry...a couple of comments:

The working inside label mentions SN 28189. 12 bore, SxS Shotgun. That would be 1886 - obviously black powder era. I did not have that gun.

Yet the label in the case is a post 1897 label after the May 97 closure of 16 New Oxford Street....and the inside label also has the crossed out 277 Oxford Street address replaced by the 295 New Oxford Street address. It looks like it was sold from a gentlemen in North Devon (see crossed out address) to a "Major Hurle" in "Yarlington House"?...(something) (Uricanton?) Station?

I assume that the gun was
-- Bought in 1886 - probably made at 277 Oxford Street - for a fellow "G.A.P".
-- Either resold or reconditioned sometime after 1897 (when the new trade label was added) to a fellow in North Devon named
. . . . ."Alberton"? S. "Scodon"?
. . . . .(can't make out the name of the scratched out village but it has a lot of "T"'s .."Schott" seems to be a common ending for North Devon/Somerset villages)
. . . . . North Devon
-- then sold to Maj. Hurle (possibly going out to Cairo, 1 Brigade? based on stamps on the case) - and at the time reconditioned at 295 Oxford sometime after May 1904 (when 295 is known to be open) - and possibly reproofed for nitro?.

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

Note: There is a "Yarlington Estate" down near Cornwall...in Yeovil, Somerset - close enough to North Devon to make this plausible.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yarlington

Edit:
Here is the exterior of the case:
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

And here is a label affixed to the case handle: (Note the vaguely discernible name on the label....?.I.Pesse?)...
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]


(Hard work, dedication, research, analysis and knowledge is not "cut and paste." Oh wait, we're talking to West Tennessee here - kind of a foreign language for that crowd).

Last edited by Argo44; 05/03/21 07:29 PM.

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Wincanton in Somerset.

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I tripped over this article today in the March issue of the British " The Vintage Gun Journal" and Gene (Argo44) was prominently mentioned throughout the article which was about the earliest Reilly breech loader and Gene was characterized as an "old(ish) man." Take that, Gene. wink Gil
https://www.vintageguns.co.uk/magazine/the-earliest-reilly-breech-loader-

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You're right Gil. This was mentioned once before when we discussed the pin-fire SN 10054 (see above p.53). I believe this is the oldest datable extant UK made pin-fire - late summer 1856.
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

Re the comments in the article by Mark Crudgington: "Mark advised caution about dating guns with limited information, commenting; 'Modern , especially American ideas , of how the gun trade of the 18th and 19th C worked always appear to me to be based on a modern model that is irrelevant within an historical perspective."

Mark told me he knew of two Lang's which allegedly had original 1854 receipts but he has never actually documented this story - and he later said the earliest datable Lang SN is 1858. (Per Lang's own pamphlet he claimed he began to make center-break pin-fires in early 1854)
. . - In the Diggory article Mark expressed skepticism about my dating methods for Reilly SN'd guns.
. . - I have had conversations with him on several subjects from this time period and he is quite opinionated on lots of things; However, to my knowledge he has never actually read through the details of the methods I used to write the history, date Reilly guns, etc. He has been wrong on some of the topics we went over. (The British class system it seems still sits heavily on the Island from some of his comments - I discussed this with David Trevallion - this is a sociological observation, not a value judgement).
. . - Donald Dallas' view of this research is the opposite to that of Mark's - see p. 53
(This is not an attack on Mark, the son of a legendary researcher and gunsmith Ian Crudgington and a noted gunsmith in his own right and the holder of an alleged excellent collection. It's just that those credentials and his opinions may not be accurate for true history).

Diggory put a bid in on that gun maybe because of our discussion about it; but, possibly because of the Reilly History it went for as I recall £ 2,750. And yes I did take a dig at Diggory about that phrase (though of course it is sort of accurate). smile

edit: And I continue to believe until other evidence is posted - not just hear-say - that this rifle is the earliest extant UK made center-break pin-fire...based on the Reilly research above. (And that dating chart is NOT whimsey).

Last edited by Argo44; 03/17/21 12:26 AM.

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==================================================
15625 (1869) - Sale and observations on big bore fowlers, their chambers and barrels


This line on the sale of Reilly SxS shotgun SN 15625 is posted here for reference; there are some interesting observations not only about 15625 but about Reilly big-bore fowlers and rifles as well... and the big bore conundrum at the time..when a 4 bore chamber for paper shells had 6 bore barrels, etc.

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=594849&page=1
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

Last edited by Argo44; 05/03/21 08:51 PM.

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=============================================================
Reilly and Sir Samuel W. Baker: - 1854 - paragraph added to the history


The Rifle and the Hound in Ceylon
(original 1854, reprinted 1874)
https://archive.org/details/rifleandhoundin01bakegoog/page/n14/mode/2up

Reilly was building explosive bullets for Baker in 1854 and made rifles for him for 30 years. Obviously, Sir Samuel knew something about Reilly that the mid 20th century gun historians forgot or ignored: this from the 1874 edition submitted obviously after "Reilly," became "E.M. Reilly" in October 1859.
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]
1880 Bradshaw
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

Reilly also made explosive bullets for Col. John Jacob, legendary British leader of Pashtun cavalry in the 1840's-50's (Jacobabad in Pakistan is named after him) in the midi-1850's for his double barreled rifle which allegedly could reach out 2,000 yards. In 1869 E.M. Reilly patented an explosive bullet.. the design of which may have been drawn from his experience with both Baker and Jacob.

A paragraph has been added to the history.

Last edited by Argo44; 05/15/21 08:55 PM.

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===========================================================
8556 (1848) - 12 bore rifle

https://www.rockislandauction.com/d...y-12-bore-percussion-double-barrel-rifle

Another attractive muzzle loader from RIA - 12 bore rifle which dates to 1848 per my chart. It was likely made by E.M. Reilly, his father J.C. having by that time launched his own number series, made just after the move to New Oxford Street. It has "Reilly, New Oxford Street, London" on the rib. It is very similar to 8665 and 8663 pictured and discussed on P. 54 above.

There are a surprising number of Reilly's from that era given the age and the fact they were muzzle loaders (see extant Reilly date chart on p.44).

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

That is an elegant gun. Stalking safeties. But look at the estimated price? $5,000?

Last edited by Argo44; 05/12/21 08:16 PM.

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===========================================
5580 (1844-47?) 12 bore shotgun - History being changed because of this gun

https://auctions.holtsauctioneers.c...621++++525+&refno=162400&image=0
J.C. REILLY, LONDON
A GOOD 12-BORE PERCUSSION DOUBLE-BARRELLED SPORTING-GUN, serial no 5580,
for between 1835-47, with browned heavy twist 30in. barrels, the raised top-rib signed 'JOSEPH CHARLES REILLY, 316 HIGH HOLBORN, LONDON', bead fore-sight, engraved shell to rib-end, engraved plugs, fully engraved top-tang, rounded border and scroll engraved isolated bar-action locks with semi-dipped tails and signed forwards of the engraved dolphin-headed hammers 'REILLY', walnut half-stock with finely engraved iron furniture and complete with its original brass mounted ebony ramrod, overall length 46 1/2in, weight approximately 7 3/4lbs.

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

For comparison, SN 5512(extensively discussed several pages above):
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

This 12 bore Reilly percussiion SxS shotgun SN 5580 is for sale at Holt's. It has the Joseph Charles Reilly, 316 High Holborn, London Address. It's a significant gun for Reilly history and it's interesting for a couple of points:

-- 16 bore 5512 SxS percussion shotgun comes from the same ilk - only with both the 316 address and the new 502 Address on the rib. This makes me wonder if J.C. didn't have a 5500 series of serial numbers in the 1840's.

-- the Holt's advertisement used this line's to get the date right. Then devolved back to urban legend. The history was sent several times to Holt's. Until it's published and in print, they won't use it unless they can sell guns with it.

Will add to the history a note of the now "possible" 5500 series of JC guns from the 1840's; this will bear more research and need more guns to come to light.

===========================================================
(Have added following to the history):


Note: There are two extant SxS percussion guns from apparently the mid-1840's which are very similar; It may be that J.C. Reilly had a 5500 serial number series of some sort; more guns are needed to establish this point. (One wonders whether this series might be connected to 4573 above; if so it would add a good 1,000 guns to the total Reilly made):

. . .-- 5512 – March 1847?, a 16 bore SxS muzzle loader shotgun, which has “J.C. Reilly 316 High Holborn now 502 New Oxford Street, London” on the rib, (the only gun found so far with both addresses and obviously numbered around the time of the move) (the two addresses are printed in a slightly different font indicating 5512 may have been brought in for maintenance and reengraved at that time);

. . .-- 5580 – 1845-47?, a 12 bore SxS muzzle loader shotgun, which has “J.C. Reilly 316 High, London” on the rib, (engraving and format very similar to 5514 above);

Last edited by Argo44; 05/12/21 08:17 PM.

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======================================================
25513 (1883) - 10 bore, 32" barrels, 8lbs 12 oz.

https://auctions.holtsauctioneers.c...++1580+&refno=++160864&saletype=
E.M. REILLY & CO.
A 10-BORE (3 1/4IN.) BOXLOCK NON-EJECTOR LIVE PIGEON / WILDFOWLING GUN, serial no. 25513,
circa 1885, 32in. nitro reproved bold damascus barrels, rib with intermediate bead sight and engraved 'E.M. REILLY & CO. 16 NEW OXFORD STREET. LONDON & RUE SCRIBE PARIS' (rubbed), 3 1/4in. chambers, bored approx. full choke in both, left wall thickness at 19, some pits, first pattern Anson & Deeley patent hammerless action, patent no. 1756 of 11th May 1875, use number 4343, rounded fences, slender toplever, automatic safety with gold-inlaid 'S' detail, bowed triggerguard, acanthus scroll engraving, brushed bright and reblued finish overall, 14 5/8in. figured Prince of Wales pistolgrip stock with steel pistolgrip stock and 7/8in. rubber recoil pad, bolstered fore-end wood, weight 8lb. 12oz.


They're wrong on the date...again...date is fall 1883, not circa 1885.

This gun is mentioned because of three things -
..1) a historical look at the weight of 10 bores at the time (8lb 12 oz, 32" barrels) for future reference
..2) a pistol grip stock and
..3) the AD patent use number (which Holt's finally has deigned to provide to buyers.....but god help you if you want a picture of the water table or barrel flats):
25513 has AD use number 4343'
25519 has AD use number 3976 - Per the extant gun chart on p.44:

Patent use numbers often make you feel like you fell down Alice's rabbit hole. Don't go there!! Don't try to make sense of them. Unless they make sense.....

Last edited by Argo44; 05/03/21 09:04 PM.

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