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Originally Posted by Stanton Hillis
Originally Posted by pamtnman
Stanton- I spoke with Jim Kelly and another person working in his shop last year, and he / they had no record and no recollection of another gun that came from this same collection said to have been worked on by Jim Kelly. I wrote about this above.
If a gunsmith noted the thin barrels and chambers to the owner, and that warning was not conveyed with the gun, then there are all kinds of ethical and professional issues swirling about here. This all seems obvious.

If, that's the key word in your sentence. What you've done is make assumptions and post conjecture. You don't know if Jim commented or not to George about the shootable condition, and if he did you don't know what George's reply may have been. Again, it's all conjecture.

Originally Posted by pamtnman
If people here know Jim Kelly so well, they should call him up and report back here.

Why put it on somebody else? You call him, again. You're the one with your panties in a wad over it. You insinuated you were through with the thread five posts ago, but you can't leave it alone. Whatever. I could care less about this whole affair, including the Reilly. I only posted to stand up for my friend Jim Kelly. That's my only intent.

Rave on. I'm through with the matter and I assure you I won't be back.

Stan
I already spoke with Jim Kelly about one gun from this same collection, and the claims made in Jim’s name were enough for me. He disavowed them and so I’d prefer to let someone else go through that this time around. Whoever bought this gun probably will. You are not defending Jim Kelly, SH, you are saying no one should ever hold any standard you don’t approve of. Jim Kelly will do just fine without you. Especially since no one here questioned him. The gun was worked over, not disclosed, etc If this venue isn’t the place to discuss things like this, then no place is. If you are not comfortable having these conversations, then I recommend Ladies Home Journal for you. 👍


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REILLY 8 BORE, NO. 25363, 28" STEEL BARRELS. WELL USED, BUT STILL TIGHT AND FUNCTIONS AS IT SHOULD. THE STORIES IT COULD TELL !!

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Steve, already agree with you that 15625 was originally an 8-bore shotgun and have posted two Reilly's close o 15625 to that purpose.

But that gun 25363 has been in my database for a couple of years. It was serial number in mid-1883 - then repurposed from a rifle to a shotgun post 1903 and rebarreled in Birmingham.
https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/80/288/engraved-edward-m-reilly-co-8-bore-hammer-shotgun
25363 - E.M. Reilly & Co., 295 Oxford Street, London*. 8 bore, SxS Shotgun*. U-L hammer gun., 28” steel barrels (*rebarreled/repurposed from a large bore rifle after 1903)

Now here's something I mentioned above that needs to be contemplated. There is that authentic Jules Julia sold 4 bore wild fowler above 18860. It's all original and in amazing condition...nickel plated and all for salt water - dated 1874 per my chart, 42" barrels... But it's proofed for 6 bore black powder. with 4" chambers and no reproof indicated and sold in UK. So WTF?

-- You've said there are no 6 bore cartridges from that era.
-- Donald Dallas has said he's never seen a UK cartridge for shotguns longer than 2 1/2" in the 19th century.
-- The UK guys say a 4 bore, if it were rebored, had to be reproofed.
So why the "6" on a 4 bore? Sold without a whimper by a noted UK auction house?

Something's amiss...I need to be educated.

Morphy has decided to erase all James Julia History. 18860 was here:
http://jamesdjulia.com/item/1363-396/

Fortunately I've kept the original advertisement:

MASSIVE FOUR BORE E. M. REILLY HAMMER WATERFOWLING SHOTGUN IN HIGH ORIGINAL CONDITION.
SN 18860. Cal. 4 bore. 4” Chambers. 42” Dovetailed stub Damascus bbls are engraved “E. M. Reilly & Co Oxford Street London & Rue Scribe. Paris.” on relatively narrow concave top rib. Bottoms of bbls are stamped with London black powder proofs for 6 bore and with SNs. Large nickel-plated Jones underlever action with non-rebounding peninsula back locks have round bodied serpentine hammers and back sliding safeties. Locks have four positions; fired, 8th cock, half cock, and full cock. Safeties engage at 8th cock. Action and locks are completely unadorned except for makers name on the tail of each lock. SN is on trigger guard tang. Lightly streaked and figured European walnut straight grip buttstock measures 14-3/8” over nickel-plated buttplate, and has classic point pattern checkering with mullered borders at grip, and a vacant silver oval on toe line. Matching splinter forend has shaped steel tip, and attaches to bbls with sliding side bolt through oval escutcheons. It appears this gun was made before chokes were invented. Diameter at muzzles is .952. Drop at heel: 2”, drop at comb: 1-13/16”. Weight: 18 lbs. 12 oz. LOP: 14-3/8”. CONDITION: Excellent, very close to new. Bbls retain nearly all of their Damascus brown with only slight silvering at muzzles, and some overall flecking. All other major metal parts retain nearly all of their orig heavy nickel plating, with only a few scattered knocks and a small bit of peeling at toe of buttplate. Action and trigger guard screws retain most of their orig case hardening color. Minor pins and safeties retain most of their orig fire blue. Stocks have nearly all of their orig hand rubbed oil finish with scattered marks and scratches, checkering very lightly worn and dark. Mechanically excellent, but triggers and locks are somewhat sluggish due to congealed oil. Bores are excellent, with some light scratches. Action is tight. Waterfowlers such as this are seldom found in this condition, because they are usually heavily used in salty environments. A superb condition example like this is a great rarity. 51401-5 MGM170 (20,000-40,000)

Last edited by Argo44; 04/03/21 04:38 PM.

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As we all know 12b barrels were often bored tight to make them shoot well at range ,so you could have 13b barrels at proof.Perhaps with larger bores this needed to be tighter to achieve the same result ie 4b tubes bored at 6b .If someone was still alive that built these things,we may have more of an insight!!!!

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The case wall of a 4-bore paper case is relatively thick, perhaps twice or more than that of a paper 12 bore case.

I think you will find that, to better match the interior diameter of the case to be used, 4 bore guns built for paper cases were made with smaller bore diameters than 4 bores which were built for brass cases.

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Gene,
The two gents that posted before me put up some good info. Paper cases often had smaller bore diameters than brass case guns of the same gauge. This is why the 4 bore you referred to had a 6 bore barrel. Longer cases certainly existed in the 19th century, that is why the LC inside the diamond proof mark exists, LC stands for long chamber which is anything over 2&1/2" in a 12 bore. The 3" 12 bore cartridge was used in this time frame, not for more powder or shot but more wadding. The 10 bore 2&7/8" cartridge was also being made during the 19th Century. This has been an interesting thread.
Steve

Last edited by SKB; 04/05/21 06:45 AM. Reason: correction

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Ok, here's a 19th century shotgun shell chart (can't actually date it) showing Kynoch shells from the period but since it has pin-fires and center-fires it has to be around 1870:
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

Diggory just published an article on cartridges...but he doesn't mention time periods or dates" (and it is somewhat confusing...does 2 1/2" also encompass 3" pigeon loads at the time?)
English guns will have nominal chamberings of 2 1/2”, (note that the actual chamber length may be 2 5/8” or 2 7/8”), 2 3/4” or 3”. The last two normally reserve for wild-fowling guns and guns for live pigeon trap shooting.
https://www.vintageguns.co.uk/magazine/chambers-chokes-and-weights

Above Steve mentions an "LC" in a diamond indicating "long-chamber." I cannot find that symbol anywhere in 19th century proof-marks. I'm sure it must exist...but in 1869? It's not on 15625 or any of the big bore Reilly's from the 19th century. Could someone post an example please. (I am here to learn as always).

Gene

Edit: Lagopus in the pin-fire line states authoritatively that this is like from the 1882 Ely-Kynoch catalog. Well...that's pretty definitive.

Last edited by Argo44; 04/05/21 11:02 PM.

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If 15625 were originally an 8 bore pin-fire, and it sure looks like it was, then it likely was originally chambered for 3.25" 8-bore pin-fire shells (unless someone in the 1860's was making longer shells before Kynoch came along - which is also possible; Reilly at the time was making his own shells). Kynoch center-fire 8 bore shells were the same length as the pin-fire. Thus when converted from pin-fire to center-fire, no need for reproof?

It now has 4" chambers. Anyway, learning a lot...always a pleasure.


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I would think converted to central fire during the 19th century and I am unsure of the proof rules at the time. Today that would require re-proof, back then maybe not.


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"Paper case " 4 bores are only nominally a 4 gauge.These are generally stamped as a 6 bore (0.919"), although strictly speaking the" standard bore" diameter of 0.935" is closer to a 6/1. The diameter at the lower end of chamber is 1.035" - ie there is 0.100" constriction leading from chamber to bore. The wall thickness for a paper case, Eley Kynoch, is 0.045 "(... compared to 0.027" +/- for a 12 bore paper case.)

Brass case 4 bores are true 4 gauge in the barrel - 1.052" - which according to Greener will carry an equivalent load to the paper case 2 bore. Accordingly these guns will not carry the same amount of constriction from chamber to bore if they are designed for thin brass cases. I think that the smooth bore rifles used thicker walled brass cases and were likely in the 6 gauge range of dimensions.

Obviously there was much variation of bore dimensions in the four , eight and ten gauge categories -apart from chamber lengths !!

Additionally, many 8 bores and not a few 10 bores have undergone chamber "adjustments" - carried out by the trade to the request of later owners, an often ill-advised procedure.

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