doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com .500 ?

Hey all. I'm new here and new to double rifles. I picked up one with mixed hammers and a 2 leaf rear sight. Safeties and hammers work fine. Excellent bore with 9 wide grooves. One firing pin isn't retained. Will that cause an issue when firing? Has anyone got a split 500 case that I could buy? I don't want to buy 20 if I'm wrong on the caliber. The chamber is approximately 2.5". The barrels have 3 proof marks and the number 39 on the bottom flats. Marked Thomas Turner on barrels and locks. Tight as a bank vault. I was told made in 1875 but I can't seem to find out much about the maker. Any help will be appreciated. Unfamiliar with posting pictures.

Shortgrub,
The easiest way would be to make a chamber cast and compare the dimensions to the cartridge you think it is. Just remember a chamber will be a little larger than the intended cartridge( from a few thousandths of an inch to more than 15 thousandths. Old cartridges vary the most). Cerrosafe is available from suppliers of gunsmithing tools and is the most recommended material for this. It is a little expensive, but is reusable over and over again. You should have a gunsmith check that firing pin( checking the whole rifle wouldn't hurt).
Mike

Thanks Mike for the reply.

I have some Cerrosafe on order. I am going to make a trip to see a gunsmith this coming week. I feel like Mikey waiting for his BB gun at Christmas. I find very little info on the maker of this rifle. Is the maker Thomas Turner well known in the double circle?

Shortgrub,
While I have an interest in English riles, my main interest is German sporting guns. There are others on the forum that are much more knowledgeable of English makers than I. For the best help, it will be necessary to post clear, readable photos of the gun and all the markings, especially proof markings. Being computer illiterate, myself, I understand your problem with posting photos. Raimey Ellenberg as ellenber has been willing to post photos for other people and has been very helpful in this regard. If you can email them to him, he will likely help. It would be nice to ask him first though.
Mike.

Thank you Sir for that info. I really do need to know how to post pictures.

You must have a host site

I use

https://www.jpgbox.com

It is free.

Register if you wish
Place your picture there
Capture the IMG code
Paste here

Mike

Notice the WR APUN on the Doll's Head



Serbus,

Raimey
rse

That should be lots of fun, likely .500 3". Looks the the bores are great.

Notice the WR APUN on the Doll's Head

Birmingham proofs.

The >>39<< would equate to 0.492", Bullet for proof would have had a diameter of 0.472", bullet length would have been 1.422" and bullet weight would have been 715 grains ahead of 68 grains of powder.


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

I think you are mistaken in regards to bullet weight and powder charge. Standard powder charge is 135 grains of black, bullet weight varied from 335 gr up to about 500 grains(I need to check my books to get an exact figure). The 39 would be bore diameter not groove, bullet will likely be between .504 and .510"
Steve

Not mistaken as taken from >>Modern Breechloaders<< 1872 chapter & verse, but maybe a couple years early?


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

You may be referring to 0.500 whilst I am pulling data for >>39<< bore.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

I'm not familiar with that book but I have a rifle in .500bpe and several books, both reloading manuals and reference books that confirm my historical loads. The .500 bpe never was loaded with that heavy of a bullet or that powder charge.

39 bore is just that, the diameter of the lands in the barrel. You cannot get the powder charge or bullet weight from the bore markings on a vintage British rifle, that is not how those proof marks were designed.

You can pull it from the tables from >>Modern Breechloaders<< plus 1st & 2nd proof data. So you know for sure it is 0.500?

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Maybe you should check that reference before you call my hand? Not sure where it applies but the data is contained therein.


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

100% sure that guns is a .500 yes, the only question is case length. You can see from the pictures it is a straight walled case so that takes any of the 577/500 variants out of the equation. So now we need to figure case length, the best way being a chamber cast on a gun from this vintage but I am betting on 3" as it was by far the most common, though it was made from a 1&1/2" case all the way up to a 3&1/4" case. On page 220 of the 3rd edition of Graeme Wright's book "Shooting the British Double Rifle" you will see his regulation load for the .500 3" of 136 grains of bp and a 340 grain bullet, this is a standard load. These same loads are confirmed in " British Sporting cartidges A summary of case types, headstamps, bullets and charge variations" by Bill Flemming.

I am 100% comfortable saying that you will not find a vintage British black powder double in .500" any length cartridge that was regulated for a 715grain bullet with 68grs of powder.
I'm not a gambler, but on this I would bet the farm.
Steve

So you are stating that in proof table that unequivocally a bullet weight of >>715<< grains for a >>39<< bore, and others, will NOT be found?


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

I'm not even sure what a proof table is or how one is relevant to getting a vintage British bp rifle up and shooting. I'm saying that gun was built for a variant of a British .500" cartridge, almost certainly the .500 3" and that you will never find a vintage British .500" BP rifle regulated for the load you quoted. These are known loads which can be seen in several loading and cartridge reference books. A 715 gr bullet is far heavier than British bp .500s were loaded. To get that gun to shoot, slug the bores and cast the chambers then work up a bp load that will regulate. I would start with a bullet of about 340 grains myself.

Steve

I don't have a dog in this fight, but proof tables were published because they were regulatory( actually statutory) for proofing the barrels, and show loads greatly in excess of any duty load. It is the same with the projectile weight for proofing. The "duty" or "regulation" load was entirely different and would have been determined by the cartridge's designer, not the government . This load would have been half or less than the proof load. Likewise bullet diameter and weight would vary, according to design. Two rifles of the same nominal caliber might use differing diameter bullets, depending on whether a "paper case" or "brass case" was intended to be used. Black Powder Express cartridges generally used lighter than normal bullets to achieve higher velocities. It was Nitro Express cartridges that achieved higher velocities with heavier bullets by generating higher pressures with cordite and similar propellants.
Mike

Thank you Raimey for posting my pictures and guys for the interesting conversations.

I have cerrosafe on order to do a chamber cast. I slugged the barrels 6" down on the breech end and 2" down from the muzzle. Both areas mike at .510 groove dia. It's hard to measure the lands being an odd number and narrow. The best I can mike the length on the chamber to the first step is around 2.100" with touching the rifling at 3.100" Unsteady hands and bad eyes now. Hopefully a chamber cast will help

Sounds right, if you have access to gage pins the getting the land diameter becomes easier.
Steve

I had access to pin gauges before I retired. I worked in an automotive stamping facilities. Team leader in Maintenance. They had a very nice tool and die dept.

Shortgrub,
You can get a pretty good approximation of the groove diameter from the chamber cast, or a lead slug driven into the barrel, with a digital caliper by lightly closing it on the slug, then "rolling" the slug until it "clears" and check that reading. You should do it a few times until there is a consistent reading. A friend of mine wraps the slug with a piece of his thinnest shim stock and mikes across the diameter. He then subtracts twice the shim stock thickness for another way of approximating the diameter. If you had access to pin gages, they may have also had ring gages to match.
Mike

Shortgrub;

The conversations here are of some interest to you I am certain. However, I suggest that you to to the acknowledged world expert of British double rifles, Graeme Wright of Australia. You can contact him at his email address:
thepilotgw@hotmail.com

I have always had very quick responses back from him when I have emailed him in the past. Send him an email and photos requesting the information you want.

Graeme Wright's book on the British Double Rifle will be of much value to you and I suggest you buy it. On page 70 (3rd edition) is information that I call you attention to where he states that by in large all original British black power rifle cartridges were paper patched; and further he states in regard to the .500 black Power express cartridges: "In looking at the .500 black power express, the British standard size are .502" bore and .510" groove diameters. The original projectiles that I have measured were .502" for the projectile and .508" to .512" with the paper patch in place."

I think that your measurements indicate the above information from Graeme Wright is consistent with your double rifle's chamber dimensions.

I know that copies of Mr. Wright's book are difficult to find and are costly, and if you would like for me to send you copies of pages from his book concerning your rifle caliber, please send me a PM with your email address and I will send them to you.

Kindest Regards;
Stephen Howell

Well gents, I need new glasses. I cast the chamber today and found it to be a bottleneck case. 577/500 No. 2 I'm pretty sure.

Chamber cast trumps pics on the internet anyday, that is a great cartridge. Enjoy it!

Stephen,
I understand a 4th edition of Mr. Wright's book is currently underway, how far off I do not know. Best regards,
Steve

I certainly will enjoy it after I find dies, a bigger press, brass and bullets. Got everything else needed. Any suggestions?

Join

http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums

and

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/ubbthreads.php


Post a Want to Buy add in the classifieds of both and here at doublegunshop, watch ebay and gunbroker as well.

I just picked up 450 3&1/4" and 400/350 dies for very good prices.

Good luck.
Steve

Thanks Steve.

Here is some brass at Buffalo Arms:

https://www.buffaloarms.com/577-500-2-bertram-formed-box-ber5775002.html

Buffalo Arms and I know each other well. Being new with low postings, can I place a WTB in the classifieds?

Sure you can.

This is the most polite and informative thread in a long time. Thank you! Really enjoyed learning something...and I'm not even into double rifles!

I have to say, I have certainly been informed and directed to fine advice. It's all new to me and to be welcomed like this is grand.

That's what we try to do here, again & again.


Serbus,


Raimey
rse

Hey all.

I received my rifle back from Steve at Bertram & Company for a repair of a cracked tang. Absolutely some of the best welding and blending I have seen. You would never know it was cracked. And with the engraving redone. Hat's off to ya Steve. Thanks for the reference. I'll give a range report in a few weeks.

Shooting a double rifle, and especially hunting with one, is awesome. I bought mine in 2004 and quickly learned that it will pretty much force you into reloading if you weren't there already as you basically sight the gun in by adjusting the speed of your bullets. Until going actively into all this, I couldn't imagine that softs and solids can shoot differently, even with the same load, or that crimping or not (I found that you definitely should), would impact the the POA if you're really particularly about things like that. A chronograph eventually becomes your best friend along with Graeme Wright's book. As recommended earlier, accuraterelaoding.com is an awesome resource.

Have fun!

I load for a lot of oddball black powder calibers. Each one has it's own perks. Makin em shoot well is the fun part. I have all I need to reload now except the time. It is kinda hard to justify spending that large amount of dollars to get Graeme Wright's book. But if I find a raggedly one reasonable, I'll snatch it. Thanks all for the help.

Not sure, but the book appears to be available here. Shows they have one copy at a pretty reasonable price.

Thanks Spring. Snatched it up. The only ones I have been able to find are in the hundreds of dollars. I will soon find out what it is.