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Argo44 Offline OP
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Posted this on the "Southern" line but no response; I need some sort of help by tomorrow before going over to Southern...small beer but somehow interesting:

Hanging out at the Southern today...met and talked to Joe from Charlotte, Vic Venters and several more DGS participants.
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

But I saw a Reilly discussed before on the Reilly line with replacement barrels and the lines of a 1900's rifle, converted to shotgun - SN 1833, (see bottom of this page):
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=436538&page=54

I looked the gun over today...replacement barrels; pretty sure it was a rifle converted to shotgun. The SN is not in the Reilly numbering chronology but is on the barrels and tang. It's been reproofed as well as rebarreled. It is heavy so I think it really looks like a 1907 rifle. But here is the strange thing...no Scott Gas Check patent grooves.

-- Question: Was the Scott Gas Check Patent 617 of Feb 1882 used only on shotguns? or was it also used on big bore SxS rifles as well?

Last edited by Argo44; 04/23/21 10:20 PM.

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Someone must know the answer:

Here is the rebarreled, reproofed Reilly SN "1833" w/o Scott gas check - with the weight, barrel length, pistol grip stock it is almost certainly repurposed from a big bore rifle:
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

It looks very similar to this gun SN 35554 (1907):
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

I'm thinking there is one of three possibilities for "1833":
-- It was made before Feb 1882 (very unlikely)
-- Big bore rifles did not use the gas check patent, (another indication that "1833" was originally a rifle.)
-- Or there's been major work in the action (no indication of this).

So someone must know if the Scott Gas Check Patent was used on rifles.


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Argo44 Offline OP
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No answers so I'll add this:

This is Reilly 8 bore SN 25383 Dated per the chart to early cal 1883. It is now a shotgun rebarreled with 28" steel barres, with the 295 Oxford Street address (after March 1903, possibly not till May 1904). It was formerly one of Terry Buffum's Reilly's now residing with SXS 40.
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

I concluded it was originally a big-bore rifle repurposed after 1904 as a shotgun; reason - pistol grip stock; weight; barrels much shorter than should be found on a fowler. Here is the Amoskeog advertisement:
Blue steel dovetail lump barrels with a single bead sight on the smooth rib marked "E.M. REILLY & Co. 295 OXFORD St. LONDON", doll's head rib extension, single extractor, and mixed London and Birmingham proofs on the flats. Heavyweight, casehardened action and locks with sculpted fences and hammers. London and Birmingham proofs on the water table, and knurled under lever. The lock plates and action feature flourishes of light scroll engraving with maker's marks on each lock. Checkered forearm and pistol grip stock with lightly engraved fittings, Anson latch gold initial oval engraved with the bust of a roaring lion, and solid recoil pad.

I asked harry to see if there was a Scott Gas Check patent use number on the faces. There are on other Reilly shotguns from that time period:
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

There are none. So until someone can post otherwise, the conclusion is that for some reason the Scott Gas Check patent was used only (or for the most part) on shotguns. If someone has a gas check on a 1880's-90's rifle, would much appreciate seeing a photo.

Last edited by Argo44; 04/28/21 07:31 PM.

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Somewhat better looking now with a new pad and stock refinish. I know, thick pads are ugly but the gun had a very short LOP. It is a blast, (pun intended) to shoot.

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

Last edited by SXS 40; 04/28/21 08:49 PM.

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There are two Reilly big bore rifles from the 1880's which were pictured in DGJ. Perhaps there is reference to a gas check patent in those articles or a picture?

26781 (Dec 1885): E.M. Reilly .320 2/14" boxlock SxS rifle by E.M Reilly; Pictured Double Gun Journal, Spring 2014, p50, and described pp 69 & 70.:
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

25711 (late 1884). Cal. 8 Bore. (.850 Groove diameter, 11 grooves). 3-1/4″ Chambers. 28″ Fine Damascus bbls are fitted with broad file cut matted rib (with dolls head extension), holding one standing, three folding leaf express rear, and small silver bead front, sights. Tops of bbls are engraved “E. M. Reilly & Co” and “502 New Oxford St. London”.
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

Last edited by Argo44; 04/29/21 04:39 PM.

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26781 appears to be a Westley sourced action by looking at the top lever.


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I sent a query to Cal Pappas in Alaska, who probably has handled as many big-bore SxS rifles from the late 1800's as anybody. He wrote that he has never seen a gas-check on a big bore SxS rifle.

So, until we hear otherwise, this is one more way to identify SxS's that have have been converted to shotguns from rifles after the arrival of the Scott Gas-Check patent. I.e. if a SxS shotgun looks like it might have been a rifle, and has no gas-check, it likely was indeed originally a rifle.

Now the question - Why were big bore rifle cartridges less corrosive than shotgun shells? Was it the number of rounds one cycled through the guns?

Last edited by Argo44; 04/29/21 10:13 PM.

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And Steve, re the Reilly W-R action: There are a number of Reilly guns with that action. I did considerable research on them. W-R always managed to slip in a W-R number on actions he made for the trade. These are not found on the Reilly W-R actions. Thus I speculate that Reilly made them under license. See the Reilly line.


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Originally Posted by Argo44
And Steve, re the Reilly W-R action: There are a number of Reilly guns with that action. I did considerable research on them. W-R always managed to slip in a W-R number on actions he made for the trade. These are not found on the Reilly W-R actions. Thus I speculate that Reilly made them under license. See the Reilly line.


Wouldnt W-R have that info in their records if that was the case? Highly doubtful Reilly made those W-R actions. Just sayin. There’s absolutely no proof that Reilly had any capabilities available to them to produce their own actions in that era.

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I would agree with Dustin that at least the barreled action was likely sourced from WR.


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Likely sourced from wR - appearances can be deceptive.
In DGJ winter 2020 the excellent article by Terry Deem on Pittsburg Firearms Co. shows a Westley Richards design A&D that I would have said emerged from their factory, at least as an action, BUT on dismantling has the hidden marking of R. ELLIS MAKER BIRM M.

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Good info, you do not see many C-bolt top lever guns that did not start out life at the WR factory, it is nice to learn about Mr. Ellis.


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We've discussed Westley Richards and their authorization for others to manufacture their patents under license before. It's not difficult to do. There is evidence that Reilly both sold Westley Richards guns and made them under license himself:
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=569479
(You'll recall that in 1881 census, Reilly employed 5 times as many workers as Purdey and 60% more than Greener and had an estimated three times the manufacturing space of Greener and 4 times that of Purdey).

The WR patents and their licenses and patents are quite interesting. However, apropos this line on whether big bore rifles used the Scott gas-check patent during the black-powder era after Feb 1882, it looks like they did not. This could well be another identifier for post Feb 1882 black powder guns that may have been converted to shotguns later on.

The Reilly I saw at The Southern that provoked this query 1833...I believe was made in the mid 1880's as a big bore rifle, was rebarreled after May 1904 as a shotgun. The weight, stock, barrel length and lines hint at this...the lack of the gas check patent reinforces the conclusion. Harry's 8 bore likewise.

The question remains of course...."Why gas-check on shotguns and not on big-bore rifles at the time?"

Last edited by Argo44; 05/01/21 08:56 PM.

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Gene,

If you can lay your hands on a copy of Wal Winfer’s Volume 8 British Single shot rifles you will find at pages 299 to 300 photos of a Scott built double Holland and Holland rifle in .360x 2 1/4 “ Express. It is fitted with the patent gas checks and bears a patent use number.

I know this was not a “ big bore” but it goes at least some way towards answering your question,

Keep Well,

Parabola

Last edited by Parabola; 05/13/21 07:25 AM. Reason: Clarification
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I have pictures of a Parker Bros. Grade-6 12 gauge T/A hammer gun with the Scott patented gas check system but I haven't been able to post pictures on this forum.

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Well, I knew somebody would turn something up. I can think of half a dozen reasons why a mid 1880's big bore SxS rifle doesn't have the gas check....but the invention was so logical and its advantages so well understood and demonstrated that one would think all guns after 1882 would have used it. Of course, nothing of the sort ever happens. Still...would like to see that pic DAM...I'll send you a PM....if you email me the pic, I'll post it.

One more of my half-baked, cockymanie theories may be put to rest. Still, there's a lot of big bores out there that do not have that patent for some reason.

Last edited by Argo44; 05/13/21 07:44 PM.

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Argo44 - I sent you a couple of pictures via the email you sent me. It may have gone to your spam folder.

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Images: Now what was the date of the Parker? For some reason I always thought the gas-check was really aimed at black powder. That 12 bore is a rifle...right?

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

Last edited by Argo44; 05/13/21 10:10 PM.

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No, in fact it is a 12 gauge shotgun manufactured in 1886, most definitely a black powder gun, and was shipped to a wealthy gentleman in Cleveland OH who shipped ore on the Great Lakes.
He was a competitive live pigeon shooter and duck hunter.

Parker Bros. did not cut the Scott's patented gas check system on the breech face, it was more likely done by Cleveland gunsmith and gunmaker J. Prechtel.

Thanks for posting my pictures. I hope it was beneficial to those who had never seen it before. I have seen a couple of variations of this system but not markedly so.

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Thanks. The theory proposed is that for some reason the Scott Gas Check patent was not used on big bore rifles on the period. Thus far not a single big-bore rifle with the patent has surfaced other than the rifle Parabola mentioned. So, still looking.

(By 1896 that UK patent was ready to expire - 14 years; wonder if they took out a different patent in USA. Would be nice to see the stamp for the record).

Last edited by Argo44; 05/15/21 09:42 PM.

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It would be nice to know the conversation between the owner of the Parker and the gunsmith who cut the gas check system in it... and the reason it was done in the first place. I can easily understand why it would have been done on a hammerless gun - the blowback through the firing pin holes in the breech has been blamed for damage to the stock head (splitting/chipping) but a hammer gun would never suffer these kinds of mishaps IMO.

Incidentally, there are no non-Parker stamps anywhere on this Parker, so apparently it was done after the patent had expired.

There are records (with the gun) of it having gone to Prechtel for "overhaul" in 1914, 1915, 1916, and lastly 1920 but it doesn't address anything else that may have been done to it other than being sent back in 1920 ten days after it's overhaul date because "lever does not work."

Last edited by DAM16SXS; 05/15/21 08:15 AM.
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Not getting much further on whether big-bore 1880-90's rifles used the Scott Gas Check patent.

But there's a second bug in my ear about this patent mentioned above, which no doubt the knowledgable members could answer. "Was the gas check patent only for use with black powder." i.e With the change-over to smokeless powders c 1900....did this obviate the need for the Gas Check?

I'm not a general gun historian but that patent might be sort of a marker of some sort if it were solely applicable to black powder.

1920's French Saint-Etienne SxS 12 bore shotgun - no gas check:
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

Last edited by Argo44; 05/15/21 09:40 PM.

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