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Joined: Nov 2005
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CJF Offline OP
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Took a risk on a vaguely described auction listing. Trying to figure out what I have.

I'll post better pictures in a few days but for now, here's a link to the auction. https://www.proxibid.com/Firearms-M...5/lotInformation/60704024&rfpb=0#Top

Description said shotgun, but pictures showed rifle sights and Rigby-style fore end latch. Maker is Jos. Sigott of Ferlach. Auction house shipped quickly and I have it in hand.

Tiny. Small frame. Hammers. Engraving a mix of decent and cheap. Barrels tight on face, short at 23" even. Do not appear cut. Rifle barrel is on right. Stamped 12.5 underneath. Appears to be 60mm or slightly more to leade or forcing code. Maybe 12.5mmx60r Danish? a .500 BPE case rim fits the rim recess. Rifling looks like Henry style. Haven't measured the 20ga barrel yet. Fired 20 hull does not go in easily and haven't forced it. Shotgun tube marked 14.9.

Proofs appear to be Ferlach post 1891. Has first rifle firing proof, and 1956.11, which I take to be the 1,956th gun proofed in Ferlach in 1911. That right?

The bottom rib is marked 5624 10 158 11.8 Haven't figured that one out yet.

Anyone have a suggestion on what the 12.5mm rifle cartridge might be?

Last edited by CJF; 05/18/21 01:29 PM.
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Chamber cast will tell for sure

https://militarycartridges.com/category/148-11mm-austrian-werndl/

SEE RIGHT on the above for a cartridge listing


https://forum.cartridgecollectors.org/t/11-3x50r-11x52r-dutch-beaumont-cartridges/6702

Fun reading

Mike
p.s. what fun if 50-70 smile

p.s.s. These 20 gauge 2.5 inch hulls might be good for you cape gun
https://www.grafs.com/catalog/product/productId/11078

Last edited by skeettx; 05/18/21 10:13 PM.
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CJF Offline OP
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Agree! I wish those were in stock.

Curious why you suggested the 11.3mm Austrian Werndl round for the 12.5 marked barrel.

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smile
Bore and Groove diameters are different animals

Can not wait to hear the results of the chamber cast

Mike


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USAF RET 1971-95
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The cartridge is likely 12.7x60R / .500 Express (Short); a popular black powder hunting round in Austria-Hungary at the turn of the century.

This seems to be a pertinent Georg Roth case from 1897: https://one.nbstatic.fr/uploaded/20170205/3676800/thumbs/450h300f_00001_RARE-12-7-60-R-D-Express.JPG

And another reference: http://old.municion.org/12_7/12_7x60R.htm

Sigott was one of the leading Ferlach makers at the time. Nice catch.

Kind regards,
Jani

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Originally Posted by CJF
The bottom rib is marked 5624 10 158 11.8 Haven't figured that one out yet.

That would be the preliminary datastring on the 1st pass - #5624 - 10(not sure) - 15*8mm and 11*8mm 1st past diameters.

If I could see it I could interpret it.

Viennese style forend lever:

>>The grip catch was patented by Charles Harvey, an employee with Wilkinson & Son of 27 Pall Mall, London in patent no.1793 of 7 July 1866<<

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=267208&page=all


Almost all of Hannover firearms merchant H. Scherping's wares wore that style forend fastner.


Serbus,

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A chamber cast would be helpful. If it is a 12.7 x60R, the chamber should measure around .582-.587" in diameter at the head area. A quick measurement won't confirm the caliber, but if it isn't greatly different, it will show additional measurements might confirm it. BTY, for those not familiar with municion. org. when they translate the Spanish word for "case", it comes out "sheath".
Mike

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Here are some pictures. Working on the chamber cast.

[Linked Image from up.picr.de]

[Linked Image from up.picr.de]

[Linked Image from up.picr.de]

[Linked Image from up.picr.de]

[Linked Image from up.picr.de]

[Linked Image from up.picr.de]

[Linked Image from up.picr.de]

[Linked Image from up.picr.de]

[Linked Image from up.picr.de]

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Cast shows case length of 60mm. Diameter at base is .558” Diameter near neck is .536”. Bore is .490”

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[Linked Image from up.picr.de]

5624.10.15*8.11*8

So if the numbers are correct, # 5624 to pass thru in 1910 with tube diameters 15.8mm(left) and 11.8mm(right)


Serbus,

Raimey
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CJF Offline OP
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Interesting Raimey. Thank you.

I also cast the smoothbore. Measurements indicated 24ga, not 20 as I had thought. 60mm long chamber. Bore is 0.594" or 15mm. Case is 0.660" as the base and rim cut for chamber is 0.722".

Pics below of my casts. I'm not good at that and I need to buy better calipers. First is shotgun. Next 3 are rifle.

[Linked Image from up.picr.de]

[Linked Image from up.picr.de]

[Linked Image from up.picr.de]

[Linked Image from up.picr.de]

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Originally Posted by CJF
I also cast the smoothbore. Measurements indicated 24ga, not 20 as I had thought. 60mm long chamber. Bore is 0.594" or 15mm. Case is 0.660" as the base and rim cut for chamber is 0.722".

24 Bore would be a neat chambering for a Biks. Cartridges aren't that difficult to come by.

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Raimey
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Hi

As I'd noted elsewhere, at the shot barrel, Snider brass would work, although a bit short. Magtech 24ga brass could work too if you can get it.

Graf's has the magtech brass

https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/11079

50 Alaskan brass might work for the rifle barrel, so 348 Winchester could be used as a parent case.

Graf's has it

https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/77981


Furthermore, if you find that this gun would end up being more trouble to load for than you would be comfortable with, I'd like a chance to buy it from you.
Consider me if you want to pass it on

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Originally Posted by Tinker
Furthermore, if you find that this gun would end up being more trouble to load for than you would be comfortable with, I'd like a chance to buy it from you.
Consider me if you want to pass it on

Great post. I'd line up too in order to have a shot @ it.

Serbus,

Raimey
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I recently bought ammo for my 24ga / 5.6x35R SXS combo, from Midway. It was before the current run on ammo, but I would guess they still have some.
Mike

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