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I inherited a gun that was designed in the era of lead shot. Francis Sell was a proponent of the 20 gauge 3” magnum for ducks and geese, adjusting his loads to suit the situation. He had a hand in marketing the wares that the Prandelli and Gasperini company produced to his specs, circa mid to late 1960s.

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

These are well made Italian boxlock non ejector guns, produced with 3” chambers and requisite Italian proof, long chokes, extended forcing cones, a bit of a back bore, and well polished tubes. My version is choked Mod and Imp Mod.
Let me be frank. The gun was free, and they are not expensive guns to this day, priced far less as used guns then a new gun built by guys who kneel and pray five time a day are at the moment. I think they are all double trigger and extractor, a plus to me. Nice cut scroll engraving, bone charcoal color case hardening, and well cut checkering. The rib is flat, fairly wide for a 20, and file cut.

Catalog page from the era the gun was produced, shown.


[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]


I don’t hunt ducks or geese. I killed my last duck, a mallard, with a Remington model 17 when I was about 18, using lead 6s ( I turned 60 yesterday, and lead was legal) and walked away from waterfowl shortly after that, when steel came along, and my pops was leaving a perfectly good Irish Setter show dog, that would hunt, at home to pursue geese in western Minnesota. If I was a waterfowler, then or now, I’d use a 12. To my thinking, the 20 gauge waterfowl gun was made obsolete when steel was legislated as mandatory. Even with some other, expensive, non toxic shot, I’d still use a 12 before a 20.

The 20 is pretty much unused, and as I hunt grouse and pheasants, the 3” part of the gun won’t be a huge factor. The gun weighs just over 6 1/2 pounds, and since I have been learning to shoot off my right shoulder, I have come to the conclusion that for hunting, I still prefer a straight stock and a splinter, versus the full pistol grip and beavertail the gun came with. I wouldn’t miss the chance to eliminate the white line spacers, but, the recoil pad could stay, as it is still pliable after all these years. Maybe replace it with a plate. Not sure on that just yet.

My thought would be new front wood, a splinter, elimination of the pistol grip, disabling the auto safety, refinish the wood to match and a rechecker of both pieces of wood. Yes, the white line spacers would go, lest I throw up a bit in my mouth every time I look at it.
I’d have the ‘Smith inspect, debur, clean and lube the innards. I know everyone gets all dewey eyed over oil finishes, but, I’m going to use it, and would specify poly of some sort. Chokes would be left as is. The barrels are 28”, good 20 gauge bird gun length.

Then I’d use it in the uplands. Not concerned about resale or originality, obviously. The previous owner never got around to shooting it. I’m thinking I want to correct that, and use it in his memory.

What say ye?

Gun on the scale. I’d expect about 6 1/4 lbs when the job was done.

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

Nice old gun picture. Of late, I’ve been practicing on a trap field with a M1 safety Browning A5. My clay guns are typically 12s, as well.


[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]




Best,
Ted

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I would say, since you are transitioning from left-handed to right handed, to shoot it a bit.

You may find, that the extra beef in your left hand helps you adapt.

If after a few outings, you decide it needs to go, then whack away.

It’s really quite well-made, it looks good, other than that Beavertail.


Out there doing it best I can.
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The beavertail is a bit enormous. I don’t hate them, when they are a bit more proportional to the gun, but, I do prefer a splinter.

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Ted

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I can't think of a single reason why you shouldn't make the gun suit your needs. A slender forend would be nice. I'd open the choke a bit in the right barrel, if I found patterns too tight.
I bought an AyA Model 106 in 16 gauge, and the first thing to go were the white line spacers.
Enjoy the journey with your "new" gun.

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I use to read Sell's articles and always wanted a 30 inch one but never got around to buying one. Bobby

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Happy Birthday Ted. Welcome to the 60s.

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Go for it. It would be a wonderful pheasant gun with the modifications you describe. And you'd be putting a gun back into use which would otherwise continue to age in the vault, unused and unloved.

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Thanks, Lloyd. I bow to your seniority.


I will shoot the gun some more, for some reason I have plenty of 20 gauge target loads. The single thing that hasn’t changed in my shooting since the eye disaster and subsequent surgery, is, what feels best in hand.


Although I haven’t done it of late, pretty sure I managed with some fiber wad 20 gauge loads to get a Mod pattern to open right up to an IC pattern, or, at least close enough for the birds I hunt. I’d prefer to change my loads, over changing the guns chokes.


Best,
Ted

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It might be possible to make your bt forend into a splinter if it is fitted closely be enough underneath the barrels already. I have been told that one way to determine how closely it is fitted is to remove the forend, place some Play-Doh under the barrels, then carefully try to seat the forend until it latches. Then remove and see how thin it squeezed out.

If you could convert it at least the wood would match.


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Sell it and buy something that fits the bill without going through all the expenses of the wanted/needed conversions. Seems like an expensive project to fill a niche that you more than likely already have covered by guns you probably currently own. Just a thought.

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Ted...just get rid of the white spacers and use it for what it is.....a good phez 20ga....or sell it..


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Originally Posted by LeFusil
Sell it and buy something that fits the bill without going through all the expenses of the wanted/needed conversions. Seems like an expensive project to fill a niche that you more than likely already have covered by guns you probably currently own. Just a thought.

Yea, that is an option, I suppose. They ain’t worth anything, though:

https://www.gunsinternational.com/g...ly-41-707-20ga-blne.cfm?gun_id=101648195

I actually think this guys pricing is optimistic. They sell for what an equivalent Spanish boxlock sells for, probably because not enough people know Richland imported a few Italian guns. The Italian guns, are better, no question.

But nobody knows or cares.

What is a comparable, subgauge, boxlock going to set me back? How does that price compare to what I have into this one (0) and what the cost for new front wood, and rasping the pistol grip off?

Might be the same money when the dust settles. The one I own would be done, fresh and serviced, the next one, maybe not so much.

Thinking out loud, mostly, but, the Richland might make up into a fine bird gun. It is basically new, as well.

Best,
Ted

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Ted,

You could keep the cost down by reshaping the existing stock and possibly the fore-end.

Many years ago I had pre-war BSA BLE with a semi-pistol grip.

Grange Guns at Redditch converted it to a diamond section straight hand using the original butt stock and reshaping the trigger guard tang.

The fore end was already a splinter shape.

I was pleased with the result but sold it on ( for much more than it would make now) when given the Edwinson Green BLE that has been my main gun ever since.

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Ted;
Geeeeeez....its a fine bird gun now.....you just dont see it....tunnel vision....as good or better than your Nitro.....BTW your is a LOT nicer than the one you show for sale......

Last edited by gunut; 06/14/21 02:17 PM.

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The one for sale has 26” barrels. A real tough sell these days. I would just rework the wood you have and shoot it. Having a fore end made is going to cost just as much as having a new butt stock made. Not cheap and just as much labor involved. If you decide to just alter what you have your cost should be much less. You are looking to make this a shooter more than just another safe queen. But what ever you do I would not shoot too many of those 3” bombs in that gun. The kick is real.

A well placed 7/8 ounce in a full choke barrel will kill just a much as a 12 gauge. Just smaller margin of error. I shoot a lot of game with 1/2ounce and as long as I range limit myself kill just as much or more than 12 gauges shooting with me. 7/8 or 1 ounce loads will do whatever you want. Just fix the gun to your needs.

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Ted,
Another possibility if you decide you don't want to do a project with it: perhaps give it to a young person who could enjoy it. Maybe there is a member here who knows a good candidate. I don't at present. Just a suggestion. Hasn't been that long ago I would have gladly bought it from you, but I'm no longer in the acquisition phase...
JR


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God bless America, long live the Republic.
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Only kid, at the moment, is my own. He shoots right handed, and already has a small armory. None of the kids in our circle have any interest in a SXS gun. My boy always defers to his A5, over his Silver Snipe. Maybe time and experience will change that, or, not. I’m glad he has a bit of preference, at this point. Most of his friends are uninterested.

My 20s are pumps at the moment. They mostly sit. My own preferences were settled years ago. This would be an exercise in making the unused gun of a very good friend useful to me. The MN weapons collectors gun show was last weekend, and Carl and I went to the spring show every year for decades. It isn’t the same without him, and I didn’t go this year, passed some rifle ammunition to another friend who had a table. A few handfuls of .270, 30-06, .257 Bob, and some primed factory hulls for each netted $400.

Crazy.

My Nitro 16 is my non toxic shot gun. I use it locally with Heavi-shot, on places that require it. This might seem odd, but, most of my shotguns have a specific task for my use, and that use brings me a bit of joy. I’ve hunted the non toxic only spot a few counties north of me for almost 50 years. I feel good with the old Nitro there, remembering half a dozen generations of Setters who hunted it with me. To a one, the kids I hunted with back then have aged out. Sobering.

I could sell everything, buy a 20 autoloader, and use it for everything the rest of my life. It would be easy.

But, I won’t. I’d really like to use Carl’s gun a few times a season, and wish I had met him when he was young enough to tag along.

Best,
Ted

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I can't fault you for trying to change it to suit you. But, I had a gun that was much the same. It was an SKB 200E, 20 gauge. I didn't care for it, even though I shot it well. Killed my first two Gambel's quail with it. Never could get past the bt forend, which looked so much like yours. Swapped it, and some boot, for a 20 SW Ejector. Really good move for me. Love the Sterly 20.


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Just guessing the SKB didn’t come from a good friend.

It means a bit to me. Probably shouldn’t, but, it does.

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Ted

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No, I bought it at auction. But, it went to a good friend. I do have some that have sentimental value, though. They'll never leave, in my lifetime. Didn't mean to imply you should swap it off. I should have been a bit more clear about that, in retrospect.


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It’s all good, Stan.

Best,
Ted

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Hey Ted, looks like plenty of wood there to create the English grip and splinter. If there is a gap between the barrels there are a couple ways to close it. If the wood is proud, which it looks to be then inlet the forend iron a bit deeper, (preferred) or get some walnut veneer,(thin, like paper) and build the barrel channels up. Heck, your going it to hunt with it, right? As to finish you could use Formby's Tung oil low gloss, it's really not pure Tung oil, but it is tough and looks like an oil finish even if it's mostly poly? Looking forward to seeing the result!
Chief

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Ted: what you're contemplating is what I did to this circa 1970s Belgian 10 bore. It had a huge beavertail and a chunky pistol grip before I took a coping saw and a wood rasp to it. It was also cast way-off. I had it bent back to neutral and took it North for waterfowl. I even opened up the chokes so I could shoot the only commonly available ammo for it then, which was steel. It beat the hell out of me to shoot it (3 1/2-inch shells), but it was quite effective on geese and the occasional duck that came through...


[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

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I to think reshaping the existing wood is the way to go. I've done it several time with a good outcome. Saw the biggest part of the fore end wood off and if there is a gap between the barrels and wood you can use the excess to fill the gap. Have someone weld a piece of cold rolled on the end of the trigger guard to make the tang look right. Later if you want to upgrade the wood you have a pattern already made.

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Not to put too fine a point on it, this is, literally a brand, new, Italian boxlock, perhaps 3 boxes of trap loads put down the tubes at my club, and a half dozen patterning loads at the same place. Me, myself, will not be taking a rasp to it, or, gluing anything on, anywhere. I doubt you can buy an Italian boxlock similar to this today, and if you could it would set you back thousands.

Thousands.

It was given to me on a snowy Thanksgiving Day when a hero from the second big war, who was a fixture at my table for a decade or so, made note that I like to hunt that day, and saw to it I didn’t have a good reason not to go. I have had few friends like him in my life.

I subscribe to Dewey Vicknair’s school of thought on this. The best work, or, don’t bother. If I do it, it might well end up at Vicknair’s place.

Dustin is probably right, the war is over, my friend is gone.

But, still, maybe not. Maybe not to me.

Best,
Ted

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Ted: I get it, no comparison to that old 10 of mine. But....not nearly the utility it could have if left in it's current configuration. I suspect that when it's done (properly, of course) it should be the better way to honor your friend by carrying it afield (and not leaving it behind, which is why it's still so nice). And...since you are no-longer a "southpaw" (because of your recent retinal challenges), you can make it truly fit your new circumstances. For me, that would include opening the right choke tube up a smidgen (IC & IM are nearly perfection IMHO). In for a penny, in for a pound, eh?" Actually, it sounds like it could be a fun (and reasonable) project.

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Hey Ted, I've followed along for fun. If it's going off to a top smith, why not take a rasp to it?

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Jmo, but that gun deserves to be left as is. It has a very nice pistol grip shape, and the beavertail is well-executed also. I just like it as-is. Terrific dove gun.


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If you are going to have new wood all around tell the stock maker you want to keep the old wood....


gunut
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Originally Posted by craigd
Hey Ted, I've followed along for fun. If it's going off to a top smith, why not take a rasp to it?

I have talent, just not with a rasp.

A man has got to know his limitations.

JR, you are the second to cast that vote. Might end up being the plan, although I have never killed a dove in my life. Grouse, pheasants and woodcock, although I usually let the little russet fellows go, unless the dog handles one superbly.

Lloyd, the gun fits pretty well off the right shoulder. But, you already know what stock configuration feels “right” for lack of a better term. I can play with ammunition to get the Mod right barrel to open up a bit, I’m sure of that.

I have talent, there.

Best,
Ted

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Originally Posted by Lloyd3
Ted: what you're contemplating is what I did to this circa 1970s Belgian 10 bore. It had a huge beavertail and a chunky pistol grip before I took a coping saw and a wood rasp to it. It was also cast way-off. I had it bent back to neutral and took it North for waterfowl. I even opened up the chokes so I could shoot the only commonly available ammo for it then, which was steel. It beat the hell out of me to shoot it (3 1/2-inch shells), but it was quite effective on geese and the occasional duck that came through...


[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Looks good, Lloyd. That is a mighty nice pad you put on it. I'd like to get my hands on a few of those, but they're scarce as hen's teeth, now.


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Stan: That was the pad it came with. I'm hearing those Jostam's are getting hard to find now. You'd think someone like Tony Galazan would re-pop them sometime? Don't have that 10 anymore BTW. All that factory 1510 fps steel loosened her up a bit (Heck, it loosened me up a bit too!) so I sent it on down the road. Shooting a lefty 870 in 12 on waterfowl now. Much easier to live with.

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Ted, you keep saying it’s a really nice gun worth thousands in replacement, given to you from a person you respected.
It sounds like you’re about 3/4 of the way of talking yourself into leaving as-is.
I know that’s what I’d do.


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Originally Posted by Tom Findrick
Ted, you keep saying it’s a really nice gun worth thousands in replacement, given to you from a person you respected.
It sounds like you’re about 3/4 of the way of talking yourself into leaving as-is.
I know that’s what I’d do.

At the very least, the gun needs a clean and strip, and the auto safety dismantled. I actually could do that myself, but, I think I would send it to a ‘Smith and listen to his thoughts. A good ‘smith could very likely rasp that pistol grip off, and perhaps refit the front wood.
That, I can’t do, or, don’t want to do to a virtually new gun.

As a Texan, I suspect you haven’t fired many rounds at departing Ruffed grouse. Most of my hunting revolves around that hunting, and my requirements are more to game gun configuration. I’m not trying to be insulting, just point out that the different configuration works out better in my circumstances. It would be OK, as is, for pheasant hunting. JR thinks it is a dove gun, could be, I’ve never killed a dove in my life, and don’t see starting now.

I doubt the gun is worth thousands. Highly doubt it. But, it would take that to replace it with something new, in the correct configuration. I wouldn’t feel bad putting some money into it to make it mine, but that number wouldn’t be thousands.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Best,
Ted

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Since you asked . . .

I took a gun refinishing class some years ago, and took my grandfather's rifle with me as a possible project. This is the rifle he taught me to shoot with, and left to me when he died. It looks like it spend its life outdoors, sun bleached lighter on the right side from lying bolt-handle up on the package shelf of a Ford coupe. The teacher persuaded me to leave it alone, because it wouldn't remind me of my grandfather if I made it look new. So, I left it as is and take it hunting a few times a year.

If your friend had hunted that gun, especially with you, I would have to vote to leave it alone. Since he didn't like it the way it is either, I see no reason not to make it the way you want it.


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Not a bad dilemma to be in Ted. Your friend gave you a very nice 20a and sorry to hear of his passing. WWII Vets are getting far and few between now. FWIW, I'd leave it alone too. The sentimental guns passed down from family either work as is or are left alone. Its only the guns I purchase for use, that get restocked or tinkered with in any way. Best shooting with it from across the aisle.


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Originally Posted by Carl46
Since you asked . . .

I took a gun refinishing class some years ago, and took my grandfather's rifle with me as a possible project. This is the rifle he taught me to shoot with, and left to me when he died. It looks like it spend its life outdoors, sun bleached lighter on the right side from lying bolt-handle up on the package shelf of a Ford coupe. The teacher persuaded me to leave it alone, because it wouldn't remind me of my grandfather if I made it look new. So, I left it as is and take it hunting a few times a year.

If your friend had hunted that gun, especially with you, I would have to vote to leave it alone. Since he didn't like it the way it is either, I see no reason not to make it the way you want it.


This is a great comment and nicely sums up my view on the change/leave it alone issue.


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Thank you for all the comments. Strip and clean will fall to me, and after that I am going to busy myself with shooting it this summer, and playing at the patterning board. Maybe it was Skeetex who said you should use a gun for a year before you screw with it, but, whoever, it was sound advice. I’ll see what I can do with it, as is. It is a new gun, sound as a dollar used to be, without problems related to heavy use, lack of maintenance, careless ownership or any of the other bedevilments that beset us with these relics. I will use it.

The white line spacers are jarring, no? Would anyone object to eliminating the two of them?

Best,
Ted.

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Originally Posted by Ted Schefelbein
The white line spacers are jarring, no? Would anyone object to eliminating the two of them?

Best,
Ted.
You have my unfailing support to do that, Ted. Black Sharpie on the pad spacer?
JR

Last edited by John Roberts; 06/22/21 11:39 PM.

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Originally Posted by John Roberts
Black Sharpie on the pad spacer?

Precisely what I did on the SKB 200E I mentioned earlier.

No objection, Ted. smile


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Originally Posted by Ted Schefelbein
The white line spacers are jarring, no? Would anyone object to eliminating the two of them?

Best,
Ted.


I could definitely live without the white-line spacers.


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Originally Posted by Tom Findrick
Originally Posted by Ted Schefelbein
The white line spacers are jarring, no? Would anyone object to eliminating the two of them?

Best,
Ted.


I could definitely live without the white-line spacers.

I like the white-line spacers. Reminds me of the 70’s.


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The white line spacers go well with your Oldsmobile.

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would be nice if they are truly just loose white spacers....just take them out..and save them for posterity...otherwise grind them off....or color them black....


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Originally Posted by HomelessjOe
The white line spacers go well with your Oldsmobile.

And lime-green leisure suits with white shoes and matching belt.


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Originally Posted by Tom Findrick
Originally Posted by HomelessjOe
The white line spacers go well with your Oldsmobile.

And lime-green leisure suits with white shoes and matching belt.


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Originally Posted by lonesome roads
[quote=Tom Findrick][quote=HomelessjOe]The white line spacers go well with your Oldsmobile.

And lime-green leisure suits with white shoes and matching belt.[/quote


Holy polyester, Batman.
He probably generated enough electricity by walking to power Cleveland.


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let's get one thing clear....them ain't white shoes....


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lewis carroll, Alice in Wonderland
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Originally Posted by lonesome roads
Originally Posted by Tom Findrick
Originally Posted by Ted Schefelbein
The white line spacers are jarring, no? Would anyone object to eliminating the two of them?

Best,
Ted.


I could definitely live without the white-line spacers.

I like the white-line spacers. Reminds me of the 70’s.


___________________________




Can’t stop playing this.



Weird. They remind me of the 80s.



Even weirder, when I see you post, I think of Tim Bits and Poutine.

Facing Windsor, of course.

Best,
Ted

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Ted, I like that gun just the way it is. I like using a 20 for jump shooting ducks, and light as that one is, it would be perfect for me. Should you ever decide you wish to sell it, keep me in mind. I would ask that if that happens, that you write a note with a few details about your friend, stick it in a baggie and if there is a bolt hole in the stock under the recoil pad, place it in there. That's one way to remember a good man...

Mergus


Duckboats, decoys and double barrels...
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Originally Posted by mergus
Ted, I like that gun just the way it is. I like using a 20 for jump shooting ducks, and light as that one is, it would be perfect for me. Should you ever decide you wish to sell it, keep me in mind. I would ask that if that happens, that you write a note with a few details about your friend, stick it in a baggie and if there is a bolt hole in the stock under the recoil pad, place it in there. That's one way to remember a good man...

Mergus

Tell you what. You are first in line. You are also a guy who could certainly put it to use, and, it honestly would be a bit strange (for me) taking it grouse or woodcock hunting.

I’ll even do the bag thing, but, will allow you to put it in the stock.

Thanks.

Best,
Ted

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