doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Cogswell & Harrison boxlock 12 gauge

Local shop is kinda scruffy & I did not expect to see a British gun there. What can you tell me about them? They have it at $1,250, on consignment, and know nothing about it. Not even how it’s choked. Looks to be in great condition. Splinter forend. Double triggers. Serial number something like #52xxx. Comes to the shoulder nicely. I don’t have any extra scratch, but it might interest somebody… Central PA location.

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All good questions! Your response got deleted before I could reply. I'm going to go back & ask to see the flats, try to get more info. I have no idea what the chambers are, but I'm assuming not 2 and 3/4.

I have no interest in the gun, but as you point out others might.

52xxx SN potentially puts it circa 1921 based on data from the “British Gunmakers Vol 1”

Likely 2 1/2 inch chambers.

Original quality of make and condition is everything.

Working mechanics, Extractor v. Ejector, engraving, which patents, all matter.

Preeminent in condition is the barrels, the wall thickness etc. rare is the small gun store with a wall thickness gauge.

With intent of helping any "others" who might have interest, I offer the following view.

C&H brand name has Brand Value three (middle of the range for Brit and Continental brand names); BV3.

Assume it is a middle Original Quality grade, typical of many boxlock Brit guns; OQ6.

Assume the Current Condition of the gun fits the following description, "significent use" (50% original finish, few spots of surface damage, no mechanical faults); CC3.

BV3 - OQ6 - CC3 = $2320.


Reverse engineering the value: BV3 (fixed fact).

Assume one quality grade and one current condition grade lower: BV3 - OQ7 - CC4 = $1233 (CC4 = heavy use but no abuse)

Assume two condition grades lower: BV3 - OQ6 - CC5 = $1336 (CC5 = heavy use with minor repairs needed)


Could be a bargain.

Thanks for the insight. I’m a little leery because I have no means of measuring thickness, but an acquaintance might be able to help me out… I am not flush with cash at the moment (new mortgage, kid, spouse finishing a degree). Otherwise I might take a gamble, but I need to watch my pennies & make sure.

Boon: Coggies can be very good bird guns. The ones that went through the shop in my time were curious-looking occasionally (some had oddly shaped action bars) but usually had great weight and balance. Many had 27 1/2-inch tubes. Old Colonel is dead-on....the barrels are everything here.

That's all the money unless the condition is very high.

Thanks for the information, gentlemen. I went back and got a little more information. 30" barrels. 12 gauge, boxlock w/ decorative sideplates, it looks to me. They called the owner. Choked IC and Skeet. 2 1/2" chambers. He says it is a 1908 gun. I misread the serial number, which is actually 42,769--it is worn. I'll attempt to post pictures here. The one thing I noticed is that some screws have been fussed with, as someone put a screwdriver to them in a way they shouldn't--current owner says it came to him like that. I'll attempt to post some pictures, but that might be beyond my skill.

What do you think? As a WV country boy, I know nothing of British guns (besides the fact that I lust over them) & I'd appreciate any education.

Boon: Sadly, it looks like it's been badly-misused. Some ham-fisted nitwit has been after it with an ill-fitting screwdriver, so God only knows what else has been done to it. Unless they're giving it away ($650-750), I'd pass. For future reference, the photos that matter are the proof marks on the barrel flats and the condition of the standing breech. Where the top lever settles after it's closed is pretty critical as well.

Thanks, Lloyd, I appreciate the insight. Good to know. The lever itself is right-of-center, if that's what you mean.

I concur with the disdain over the screws being mangled, however they are not complete deal killers for a beater gun, it is likely if the gun functions properly now it will continue to do so.

Is it a best gun, no, but neither is the price and the chokes are good for grouse.

It maybe a good starter choice in getting deeper into side by sides.

Early on I purchased some rough guns to include Sterlingworth’s, and Francotte Knockabout’s which served me well until I could afford better later. Oddly I still miss the 20ga Francotte Knockabout BLNE.

If you can afford it go for it, if it means crazy sacrifice, then pass and wait another option down the road

Mr. Dittamo does have a point here. If bought correctly (i.e. inexpensively), this gun could very well still have some good bird hunts left in it. Early British box locks are usually very well-made and the actions themselves are fairly sturdy. The key is finding out if the gun is truly functional and the barrels are safe. I bought a well-used but very light (6lbs6) Army & Navy BLE in nowhere Minnesota for $800 many years ago that actually was a darn-fine bird gun. It was extremely plain, with a plank for wood and weak ejectors, and it was out of proof (extended chambers) but not dangerously so. It fit me shockingly well and was choked light IC and almost IM(!), so I carried it for a few years and only shot light loads in it. The birds certainly didn't know it wasn't fancy. We all have to start somewhere. As an entry into better side by sides, if this gun's safe and... if it fits you tolerably well (good LOP, proper drop & cast, etc.), it might not be such a bad place to start. It certainly has much better engraving than my 1930s Army & Navy did.

For all the reasons I initially counseled against it, selling it may be something of a challenge for this shop at that asking price. If you can swing it, offer them $600 and see where it goes from there. The average backwoods Pennsylvania hunter (FWIW, I grew up there) doesn't know much about these guns and would be intimidated by it. A more well-heeled doublegun buyer would likely be put-off by it's initial appearance. A dedicated grouse hunter, however, might be able to find a bargain here... if he's cautious and does his homework.

Confirm that the gun has proof marks (hopefully British). Lots of information on the barrel flats helps you know it's really what it purports to be. With the longer barrels, this gun should weigh somewhere north of 6 1/2 lbs (I'd expect 6lbs9 to 6lbs12). Much more or less than that is a clue that something might be awry. Weigh it fully assembled (or even all the components) first, on a digital postal scale (if the shop doesn't have one, they're cheap and available at most Walmarts). Measure the chambers (if opened, hope for only a little), a 3-inch 12-gauge shell can do that job if a proper chamber gauge isn't available (it should not fit at all), ring the barrels (go onto YouTube and find out how) and then put them on a dead-straight surface to look for imperfections (bulges, dents, or deviations), find some snap caps (buy them if necessary, cheap plastic ones will work fine) and check the triggers, they should break cleanly, crisply, and feel good (not gritty or creepy). Check the ejectors for function as well, but even if one is weak or wanky (or both), that won't make the gun useless (and will simply be another negotiating point). Check the safety for proper function. It should be smooth yet firm, both on and off. Look closely for repaired cracks in the wrist (a weak point on these guns, especially the older ones). Look at the standing breach for damage and/or corrosion and see if the firing pin holes look symmetrical. Obviously damaged or oblong-ed holes are a concern. If you need to, use a flashlight (cellphone?) to see if you can determine if the noses on the pins look undamaged (they should be round and mostly-symmetrical as well). Make sure the forend fits properly and that everything locks up tightly when the gun closes. Absolutely nothing should feel loose (any wiggles anywhere and you walk). Look closely for any obvious signs of interior barrel damage or bad pitting (light freckling might be all right, bigger pits are a deal breaker). If the barrels are even a little dirty, have the shop fully clean them so you can properly inspect them by holding them up to a good light source. Also, confirm that they aren't blued Damascus (although unlikely, 1908 isn't too-late for that). Check the chokes using a dime. Skeet and IC should allow it to fully enter each tube, Mod won't. If you simply can't get them measured, weigh the barrels on the digital scale. If they're much under 3 lbs (especially at 30-inches) then they've likely been honed way-out of any safe use. 3 lbs or more? Well, then....maybe.

An obvious need for any repair (besides the ejectors) kills the deal, period. There are likely no competent or affordable options in your part of the world for something like that. Bide your time and wait for another gun to come along.

Good luck!

$650-750 is way over top value in my reckoning.

You guys are good. I'm learning a lot. Thank you for taking the time. Yes, for me, this would certainly be a knockabout-in-the-woods grouse gun. It does come to my shoulder nicely and feels right. Well, an acquaintance of mine has gauges to measure thickness & choke, but he's out of town for a couple weeks. If it's still on the shelf when he returns, I'll take a look, and, if all seems right, maybe I'll throw out a lower number & see.

While a wall thickness gauge to many is the final say in barrel measurement, don't sell short what a good bore gauge can discover. The Skeets bore gauge is once again available. Ebay lists them at $160 plus $15 shipping. At 12.5" long, it can be used to determine if the barrels have been reamed beyond what is considered out of proof by UK standards. While on a 30" gun, 5" in the center would be unmeasurable, but one would get a good indication of whether or not to move on or have measured further with a wall thickness gauge. Gil

Complements on Lloyd3’s inspection guidance, I could not have written better.

I copied it for future reference. Now, what about buying a used Jeep Lloyd? Hints?

Boon I sent you a PM.

Boon: Battle has some excellent fodder for you to consider. That Rosson is very tasty. You'd be in safe hands and with a gun by a maker known for their great weight and balance.

Argo44: How used could a jeep be in McLean, VA?

old colonel: You are too kind, Sir.

Thanks for the tip. Battle, I'll check that now. I've admired your guns on here and other forums.

I have others also not listed.

Thanks for the photos. C&H is factually a Brand Value three (BV3) maker. This gun is without doubt a second grade boxlock ejector which is Original Quality grade six (OQ6). The current condition is hard to nail down from the photos. The chewed-up, out-of-clock screws give me the "willies" and could indicate improper disassembly/assembly (the right extractor guide looks damaged); there could be some damaged bits and pieces in there. A guess at Current Condition level CC7 (heavy use with some abuse).

BV3 - OQ6 - CC7 = $687

I'd opine that this is not your best choice for entering the Brit gun market.

I earlier replied that the asking price is "all the money" unless in exceptional condition. This gun is on the other end of exceptional condition. The gun is a mess and the broken right ejector could be a blacksmith made replacement, from its color and shape. Even at $600, this gun could be a trail of tears with no chance to recoup your investment later on.