doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Belgian Maker?

Got a new boomstick now seeing if the big brains can help decipher a maker/craftsman. Gun seems to have all the bells and whistles.[img]http://ibb.co/Hr8fzvT
[img]http://ibb.co/JjPQ97d[/img]

This will get you started
https://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=232252

Possibly Charles Masquelier
http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20ma/a%20masquelier%20gb.htm

By the font I suspect C&M was the importer. Is there nothing on the rib?

It was made 1910 to 1921; there is no lettre annale

So there is a C&M above the Fluid Pressed Steel stamping...would this confirm Charles Masquelier?

Where on the rib should I look?

I should note the barrels must be replacements as the action/stock have a different serial number.

Fantastic piece of wood.






Whitworth had to be sourced out of England.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

M.C. possibly Charles Masquelier
The Belgian initials were often last name first.

C&M may have been the jobber for the Whitworth tubes.

65mm = 2 1/2" chambers

I added a picture of the ejector mechanism to the imgbb album. Not sure if that's helpful. Got the sidelock screw out but sidelocks don't want to fall out...

Run the retaining screw in from the right & maybe use a thin drift pin to lightly tap it out?

Serbus,

Raimey
sre

I don't see the pic you note?


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

if it's a masquelier gun, it should have his mark, which is a stylized "mask"....somewhat triangular in shape if my memory is correct...should be on the water table....please give a shot of the flats.

looks like there are two different numbers on the tubes....right tube looks like 35705, and left tube is easier to read at 35786 - those may be tube numbers, not serial numbers. also see 654 stamped rather lightly on the right barrel flat...is that the serial #?

as docdrew observes, there is no lettre annale....so it's pre 1922.

best regards,
tom

N. Jacquet 9 is stamped on the inside of the lockplate: https://ibb.co/xm9pY7P

Is this the flat you're looking for: https://ibb.co/qpsvmFt

That's the water-table.



Southgate ejectors



Just doesn't get any better than that on the locks.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

So there's what looks like an AD smashed together with a asterisk over it. Could that stand for Dieudonné Ancion?

They appear to be chopper lump barrels. A good quality gun.

I The tube numbers are probably sequential 35785-6. Did Whiworth number their tubes when applying their sheaf mark or did the agent or importer number them?

I do not think that there was a patent use mark for Whitworth Fluid Pressed Steel but I stand open to be corrected?

The AD is very likely an inspector's mark rather than a maker's mark.
Yes, Whitworth did number their tubes.
Littlegun does not list a N. Jacquet gun maker so he was likely the lock maker.

Odd for a gun of this quality to have no clear indication of the maker.
Littlegun states that Charles did not take over Masquelier Freres until 1925.
It is possible the gun was made for a dealer by Charles, but for some reason never marked by the dealer, which was usually on the rib.

Without doing a bit of re-reading, Whitworth tubes left the foundry as chopperlump, and Kilby one of the few sources for tubesets/tubes? I would speculate Kilby applied the marks as a few examples wear another language than English. Some tubesets have a single number whilst others like the subject double have sequential. I have pondered if the numbers were APUNS. Last, there was a worker strike in 1897/1898 and Kilby produced Krupp steel tubesets for his clients & I think it was Purdey that after the strike offered to replace them free of charge? I'll try to find the thread.


https://www.doublegunshop.com/forum...p;Words=kilby&Search=true#Post322551

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

>>Purdey used Krupp steel from July 1898 till December 1898 for a total of 80 plus examples due to a strike I believe it was. Rigby used a Krupp absorbed concern(Annener Gu�stahlwerk/Annen Steel Company) as a tube steel source. After say the mid 1880s, and for sure by 1890, there probably wasn't a dime's difference between Whitworth, Krupp & Wittner steel tubes. Only way to say for certain would be to lop off a few inches and send them thru the Dr. Hause gun-barrel testing protocol<<

https://doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=366836&page=3

This may have been for which I was searching? I have always wanted to have a thread of the different makers(French(C Modé was it?), German(including Springer), Russian as Matka of course) & their association w/ Whitworth & Kilby. Maybe this will spark an effort.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

G. Defourny-Sevrin

Obsequio del Real Club de Espa�a de Torreon
Campeonato Tiro Pichon Torreon


Fluid Pressed Steel Whitworth's(Trademark not present as I see?)

but a tubeset by T. Kilby Special Fine Steel, wearing Birmingham touchmarks, sourced by Springer in 1934, or something on-hand used by Springer.


T Kilby Tubeset Nr. 30845 - NOT WHITWORTH?

A thread with the typical seen Whitworth tubes then others like the above, with Krupp tubesets by Kilby in the mix. Anyone have interest?

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Would further disassembly of the action reveal more about a potential maker?

I can't say but further disassembly more than likely will not ferret out the maker. So, it would be a Liège tradegun being a superposition of talented mechanics & components. Possibly cobbled together during WWI or just after when times were difficult?

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

I have just checked my 1895 Edwinson Green BLE which has Whitworth chopper lump tubes, 3 Guineas extra (£3/3/0d) on top of the basic price of £35. No mention of the supplier of the tubes ( or frustratingly of the engraver).

Each tube has Whitworth’s Sheaf trade mark and wording clearly stamped but no tube number as such.

However the gun number 5XXX is stamped on each tube on either side of the base of the barrel loop.

It may be that to avoid having different numbers on the gun Green struck down the tubes at that point to remove the Whitworth number and apply their own.

By contrast an Edwinson Green BLNE from 1912 built with KRUPP—FLUSS-STAHL tubes has no tube numbers but just the gun number 6XXX stamped in one place near the Proof marks on the barrel flat.

Parabola

Thanks for all your effort and insights gentlemen.

Vince

I don't know who made the op's shot gun, but I'll offer up a couple observations.
The Whitworth markings on the bottom of the tubes of the OP gun look as they should. By that I mean to say that the
Trade Mark is deeply stamp into the steel. It was likely done (IMO) when the bbl was still in a rough bored state as the marking is so very deep and done with a single marking stamp.

To do that deep of a mark on a finished or nearly so tube will dent the tube. Gun fakers found that out and it's an easy way to spot those.
Maybe a mandrel was placed inside the bore at that spot to do those markings and then the final reaming was done after the marking.

The other thing is that the 'Sir Joseph Whitworth......' marking is a roll stamp marking.
Also quite deep but many have lost some depth from final finishing. Their placement on the tube is in a position where most can't be hand engraved into that location with any sort of ease and come out looking like a
decent roll marking. In other words to do this marking aftermarket, it has to be done by hand and in a position that is favorable to hand engraving.
Roll marking can be done, but on a completed bbl assembly, the bbl flats, forearm hanger get in the way.
Plus the bbl wall is thin, so the extreme depth of the orig markings can't be easily duplicated w/o them damaging the inner bore surface.

On the pics that Raimey posted of the barrels with the Whitworth markings,,those first two examples are hand cut (engraver) lettered.
The lettering is easily seen as being done by hand. Letters don't match one tube compared to the other.
The layouts are placed where it was easiest to do them by hand engraving,,not that they couldn't have been placed there originally. But again it's simple to see that they are hand cut.

The Whitworth 'Trade Mark' on the first one is a simple attempt to cut it in by hand engraving and using some punches to replicate the true trademarking. But it's not even close.
One thing that does stand out is that where they did plant the 'Trade Mark', there is a shallow but defined depression in the bbl wall.

That brings to question of wether either the attempt was made to stamp a trademark in that spot but failed (the bbl is springy and doesn't stamp easily especially when trying for the depth needed).
So that attempt was removed and what you see was added.
Or.. there was another Mark there of some sort, removed and the Whitworth trade mark put into place.
I don't think a Whitworth Trade Mark was there and then removed and the lettering recut. Why remove the vestige of what you would eventually want to put back there?

On the second example there was some sort of a figure/symbol in the position that the TradeMArk would have been.
About the 7 or 8 oclock position on the upper tube (LH tube) you can see what looks like the ends of (I'll call it ) Lobes for lack of any other word.
Doesn't strike me as part of the Whitworth TradeMArk,,but ..


Those Belgian guys made some nice guns...