March
S M T W T F S
1 2
3 4 5 6 7 8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16
17 18 19 20 21 22 23
24 25 26 27 28 29 30
31
Who's Online Now
4 members (KDGJ, canvasback, SKB, Ted Schefelbein), 790 guests, and 4 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums10
Topics38,374
Posts544,010
Members14,391
Most Online1,131
Jan 21st, 2024
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 43 of 52 1 2 41 42 43 44 45 51 52
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 15,456
Likes: 86
Sidelock
*
Offline
Sidelock
*

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 15,456
Likes: 86
There is a really nice Westley Richards pin fire sitting in a local gun shop....not sure I think he wants $2500 for it.

Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 423
Likes: 73
Sidelock
***
OP Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 423
Likes: 73
Thanks for that information, Gene, it really helps towards clarifying the situation that existed before the trials. Now I wish a British-marked Lefaucheux would miraculously turn up...

jOe, a surprising number of Westley Richards pinfires have survived, and I've never really understood why. Yes, they are very well made, and their action designs made good candidates for conversion to centre-fire (most were). Being the favourite of the Prince of Wales (and later King) was surely good advertising. Starting in the pinfire business later than some, and having good facilities might have allowed WR to cash in on the rising demand in the mid to late 1860s. In my experience, most WR pinfires are of the lateral top-lever design (patented in 1864), while the pull top-lever design (patented in 1862) is much rarer, owing to fewer guns of that type having been made. Both types appeared in this ever-lengthening thread, on pages 6 and 10. Even their first centre-fires had pinfire hammers for looks (what looks like a conversion of one of their guns might not be). Maybe no one wanted to scrap bar-in-wood guns!

I've seen a few Westley Richards pinfires advertised in the US, all at about the same price. Too rich for me, despite my obvious obsession.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 15,456
Likes: 86
Sidelock
*
Offline
Sidelock
*

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 15,456
Likes: 86
That's looks just a like the one for sale....(not sure if it has a case most likely does) ......they look like a muzzle loader with a hinged stock....the wood is darkened more on the one the guy has for sale he imported it out of England looks untouched by the hands of man since manufacture....except for his importers mark.
Most pin fires I ran across were in good condition what that tells me they weren't used much...you could speculate on why.

I think it's most likely they were left in the dust by the centerfires.

Joined: May 2016
Posts: 62
Sidelock
Offline
Sidelock

Joined: May 2016
Posts: 62
The majority of pinfire "survivors" had badly pitted barrels, due to the corrosive nature of blackpowder. Many pinfires exported to the USA had their barrels internally "cleaned" up by being honed......something I doubt the prospective purchasers were told. It left many barrel walls too thin to pass a British Proof House examination. Anyone intending to use a imported pinfire should check the wall thickness first.
My experiences with pinfires leads me to believe that a greater percentage of bar in wood actions survived conversion to centre-fire. They were usually (but not always) a better quality gun.

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 15,456
Likes: 86
Sidelock
*
Offline
Sidelock
*

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 15,456
Likes: 86
Are they allowed to export British guns that are not in proof ?

Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 2,733
Likes: 96
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 2,733
Likes: 96
Joe the short answer is; No!

And now for the long answer: 'The Proof Acts lay down that no small arms may be sold, exchanged or exported, exposed or kept for sale or exchange or pawned unless and until it has been fully proved and duly marked. The maximum penalty is £1,000 for each offence, but with provision for higher penalties where, for instance, the sale of a number of guns constitutes one offence.'

That was taken from the Notes on the Proof of Shotguns & Other Small Arms issued by the Birmingham Proof House. The last edition I have is from 1992 so the penalty might have gone up since then. Lagopus…..

Joined: May 2016
Posts: 62
Sidelock
Offline
Sidelock

Joined: May 2016
Posts: 62
What sellers of these should have done, and what they did, are two different things! I knew of someone who did hone some barrels out, to get a sale! However, after almost 30 years, it would be impossible to now prove it. But I do know that a couple of well respected dealers at the time would not deal with him.

Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 423
Likes: 73
Sidelock
***
OP Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 423
Likes: 73
Trying to figure out who made pinfire game guns during the years they were in fashion in Britain is a multi-layered process. Simply going by years in business is no guarantee, as some makers saw their muzzle-loader business gradually dwindle and they ceased operations without making the switch to breech-loaders, while others might have jumped straight from building muzzle-loaders straight to centre-fire, or just started making centre-fire guns. While there were 930 or so self-identified gunmakers and gun sellers in business at some point during the period of the late 1850s to about 1870, not all would have been making and/or selling pinfire game guns. Hard evidence can be had from the guns, and this thread has illustrated a good number of examples. I had hoped more would have come out of the woodwork, as it were, but this thread is a work in progress and I remain ever hopeful more pinfires will be posted here.

Another source of information is auction and sale listings and catalogues. Ivanhoe has graciously gone through his Weller & Dufty catalogues for 1974-1975 and pulled out the pinfire game gun listings. How I wish I was in the UK and collecting then!

Here is a list of names appearing on pinfire guns from Ivanhoe's trawl effort, for which I am very grateful. They are in no specific order, but by adding them here I hope that anyone searching the Net for information on pinfires by any of these makers will find their way to this discussion thread. Several of these makers have already appeared on these pages.

Stephen Grant, London
Charles Ingram, Glasgow
E. & G. Higham, Liverpool
E. Dodson, Louth
George Jeffries, Norwich
William Golden, Huddersfield
Williams & Powell, Liverpool
Harris Holland, London
Daniel Petts, Ripley
George O. Wilson, York
Benjamin Cogswell, London
Cogswell & Harrison, London
William Powell & Son, Birmingham
William Andrew Beckwith, Birmingham
Francis Brebner, Darlington
Isaac Hollis & Son, Birmingham
John Rigby & Co. / William & John Rigby, Dublin & London
John Blanch & Son, London
John Dickson & Son, Edinburgh
Charles Frederick Niebour, Uxbridge
J. Erskine, Newton Stewart
Manton & Co., London & Calcutta
James Beattie, London
Robert Marrison, Norwich
Robert Spring Garden, London
Masu Brothers, London & Liege
William Butler Barratt, Burton-on-Trent
Joseph Lang, London
G. T. Adcock, London (dealer)
Westley Richards, London
David Nixon, Newark-on-Trent
J. D. Dougall, London
Gasquoine & Dyson, Manchester
William Green, London
William Dooley, Liverpool
Joseph Harkom, Edinburgh
Thomas Horsley, Yorkshire
William Wellington Greener, Birmingham
Henry Beckwith, London
Thomas Robert Hasdell, London
Thomas Chard, Croydon
Thomas Johnson, Swaffham
William Robert Wallis, London
Edmund Morris, Bridgewater
Peter Powell, Tonbridge
Thomas Edward Kither, Sevenoaks
Joseph Smith, Birmingham
William Pountney, Birmingham
James Purdey, London
Richard Jeffery, Guildford
Henry Tatham, London
Robert Watmough, Manchester
Edwin Wilson, Horncastle

In addition, there were a few listings that were mysterious either through lack of details, or perhaps from typographic errors (of which I noted a few). These include the three names Bond, F. Boss, and R. Townsend of London, for which I was not able to find any reference.

As an illustration of the usefulness of the above information, I have a case with a label for Thomas Hasdell, Clerkenwell (Islington, London), minus the gun. The age and the fittings seemed right for the period (the case contained a Boss & Co. pinfire), but without the original gun, I could not confirm this maker made pinfires. Ivanhoe's data settled it.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Last edited by Steve Nash; 08/20/21 04:54 PM. Reason: Correction/clarification
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 531
Likes: 18
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 531
Likes: 18
Steve,
Time to 'pick nits."

When you say "definitive maker" - more precision is necessary. William Powell & Son
made their pinfire 'lifter guns' for about 50 'makers' - some of whom are on your list.
For instance - is William Golden the "definitive maker" of a gun made by Powell but
marked "Golden."

Technical point - you have two entries for Rigby. Same company but different dates of manufacture.

Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 423
Likes: 73
Sidelock
***
OP Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 423
Likes: 73
Thanks, Steve, for pointing out my misuse of language! And for stressing 'maker' is an awfully loose term in British gunmaking...

It is better to say that pinfire guns are associated with these names, though it can't be broken down as to who actually made the guns, or retailed them, without a close examination of the guns themselves, if at all.

It is a shame that the catalogue listings are vague in their descriptions, mostly concerning outward condition rather than technical details. There are so many variations in guns with 'side-levers' or 'under-levers', at the end of the day the terms don't mean much. Not that anyone was paying much attention to pinfires, in any case.

I've corrected my post. Nits reduced!

Page 43 of 52 1 2 41 42 43 44 45 51 52

Link Copied to Clipboard

doublegunshop.com home | Welcome | Sponsors & Advertisers | DoubleGun Rack | Doublegun Book Rack

Order or request info | Other Useful Information

Updated every minute of everyday!


Copyright (c) 1993 - 2024 doublegunshop.com. All rights reserved. doublegunshop.com - Bloomfield, NY 14469. USA These materials are provided by doublegunshop.com as a service to its customers and may be used for informational purposes only. doublegunshop.com assumes no responsibility for errors or omissions in these materials. THESE MATERIALS ARE PROVIDED "AS IS" WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EITHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANT-ABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, OR NON-INFRINGEMENT. doublegunshop.com further does not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the information, text, graphics, links or other items contained within these materials. doublegunshop.com shall not be liable for any special, indirect, incidental, or consequential damages, including without limitation, lost revenues or lost profits, which may result from the use of these materials. doublegunshop.com may make changes to these materials, or to the products described therein, at any time without notice. doublegunshop.com makes no commitment to update the information contained herein. This is a public un-moderated forum participate at your own risk.

Note: The posting of Copyrighted material on this forum is prohibited without prior written consent of the Copyright holder. For specifics on Copyright Law and restrictions refer to: http://www.copyright.gov/laws/ - doublegunshop.com will not monitor nor will they be held liable for copyright violations presented on the BBS which is an open and un-moderated public forum.

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
(Release build 20201027)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 7.0.33-0+deb9u11+hw1 Page Time: 0.087s Queries: 35 (0.063s) Memory: 0.8725 MB (Peak: 1.8987 MB) Data Comp: Off Server Time: 2024-03-29 00:49:24 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS