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I’ve got a few pics on my phone. And oops! According to my imperfect serial number listing this gun is more like 1906.That is a little at odds with what Gene posted regarding production date ranges for 450 NE but I would tend to go with Gene's information as this serial number listing is known to be off a bit. So we might call this a 1909 to 1911 gun. Here they are:

[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]
[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]

[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]
[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]
[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]
[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]

Last edited by canvasback; 08/23/21 07:17 AM.

The world cries out for such: he is needed & needed badly- the man who can carry a message to Garcia
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an amazing sight....thanks for letting us look over your shoulder....


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Argo44 Offline OP
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Super! War trophy?


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Originally Posted by Argo44
Super! War trophy?

That was the story. The Ideal and the German cape gun came in together and apparently both were brought back together. Cape gun appeared to have been used and abused. The Ideal looks as though it sat in a cupboard for a very long time.


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Salut,

Cette arme a l'air en très bon état.

On peut estimer sa fabrication entre 1910 et 1912.
Jusqu'en 1909, les Ideal Express sont montés avec des canons HERCULE 3 palmes. A partir de 1910, ils le sont avec des canons HERCULE 5 palmes. En 1913, la mention "EPROUVE FINI POUDRE PYROXYLEE" est supprimée.

Sur les canons ainsi que sur la bascule, la présence du poinçon "foudre" (apparu au banc d'épreuve de Saint-Etienne le 18 mars 1924 et qui désigne une arme éprouvée en état de livraison) reste un mystère pour moi.

Last edited by fab500; 08/23/21 04:26 PM.
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Voila - a crude translation:

This gun seems to be in very good condition.

Until 1909 the Ideal Express were fitted with Hercules 3 palms barrels. Beginning in 1910 they were fitted with Hercules 5 palms. In 1913, the stamp "EPROVE FINI POUDRE PYROXYLEE" (Finished proof for pyroxylin powder) was eliminated.

The presence of the lightening bolt stamp on the barrels and on the action, (which appeared as a Saint-Etienne proof stamp on 18 March 1924, to designate an arm proofed in the state of delivery) remains a mystery for me.

(Merci Fab, recherche de l'excellence).

Last edited by Argo44; 08/24/21 04:33 AM.

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Hello All,

I don't know if the topic is still active, but it is quite interesting for me.

I have been looking for information on my father's gun for a long time. The gun is Saint Etienne Robust 222 12 gauge, with one rifled barrel, and the other smooth. There is a number under the lever 114511 and number 32-S on the bottom of the head.

Could someone help me by giving more information - for example, approximate year of production.

https://ibb.co/kyNpw0v

https://ibb.co/NmsSwhq

Thank you in advance!

Ivan

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I'll start by posting the pictures of your Robust and will offer up that the model 222 was made from 1946 to 1980 per Myorkas' book. FAB500 might give more information.
-- Manufrance Robust
-- Double Proofed at the factory as a finished arm. This from Fab: after 1926 manufrance ceased using the customary saint etienne proof house, and ran their wares through an in-house facility.
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forum...;Main=39635&Number=595336#Post595336
. . . . .- one arrow thru target = 850kilos = single proof
. . . . .- two arrows thru targets = 1100kilos = double proof
. . . . .- three arrows thru targets = 1300kilos = triple proof
-- Canon Frette - is the classic "stepped" or "sleeved" (In the sense that an artillery piece has "sleeved barrels") MF barrel.
-- "Hercules Steel"
-- "The rifled barrel" ("raye") probably has striations on the last few inches of the barrel: I believe it can spin a ball or act as a spreader for shot shells (barrel used for Becasse?) but will let others chime in.

Check out this line - which is perhaps the finest explanation on the entire internet of the French practice of shallow groove refiling in a shotgun barrel, its result on shot-shell patterning and on bullet/ball accuracy.
https://doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=587581&page=1

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]


and by the way, I don't see a "222" but there is a "32-S" (1930-31)

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Last edited by Argo44; 01/15/24 10:37 PM.

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my first question is this; ivan, why do you think this gun is a model 222? your second photograph clearly shows that the bottom of the action is marked as a model 32-S....two digit model numbers were not used past 1931. the production lists in myorka's book show that model 32-S was made in only one year - 1930. it was the highest grade robust made that year.

second question; in your first photograph you show the barrel flats, can you give use a picture of the markings on the tubes and ribs - forward of the flats? there should be some markings present there, often including a stamping of the model number on the bottom rib, between the tubes. at least on ideals, this seems to me to be a connecting mark that ties the barrel set to the action...

now, i will observe a conflict between the photos #1 and #2; the action is marked with the S - which indicates "supra"...while the barrel flats show the right tube marked "raye". manu provided two different types of rifling - invariably in the right tube(?) supra was a cylinder bore tube, with a very slow and shallow rifling that extends the entire length of the barrel...while raye was a short (2 or 3 inch) portion of rifling at the muzzle, that was smaller diameter than the remainder of the tube - in other words, functioned as both rifling and choke. a quick look down the right tube will reveal which type of rifling is present.

these two markings, appearing to conflict with each other, make me wonder if the barrels are original to the action...if the barrel set is marked model 222, they are post 1931. and i have no doubt that the action was proofed in 1930. serial numbers might be helpful, but my only robust (a #226) does not show a s.n. on the action - only the barrel set....on the bottom rib, near the model number.

please do a bit of research, and if possible give us a additional photo or two.

best regards,

tom

Last edited by graybeardtmm3; 01/15/24 05:52 PM.

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The Raye mark on the right barrel means it is rifled to create a larger shot pattern typically for shooting woodcock.

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