doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Post 1926 Manufrance 12 ga

Ivan, we could use pictures of the whole gun. Thanks.

(I visited Sofia a number of times from 1993 to 2005 and have Bulgarian friends whom I've not seen for many years).

Looking at the 1930? - (date not mentioned) pamphlet forward by Buckstik, it looks like "rayé" and "SUPRA" are identical - whether the ad refers to the long twist rifling or the last 6" twist choke is not clear (but the sketch favors the former):

Cela nous a conduits a la création de nos canons rayés “SUPRA”. (for translation see above):

I have a Verney-Carron catalog from 1999 which shows that they were still producing an OU "Grand Becassier" model (We'd likely call it a woodcock special, but it sounds better in French.) There were two different versions, both 12ga with 61 cm barrels. VC offered a choice of either a lower barrel with the spreader rifling or cylinder. The upper barrel came with two choke tubes: Either cylinder or half choke. Very interesting. A lot of people are confused when they see the rifling and assume it's a slug barrel.

Verney are still making them.

https://www.verney-carron.com/sagittaire-becassier-classique

And RFM offer a side-by-side:

https://www.rfmarmi.it/en/product/becassier-zeus-becassier-zeus-s-77

the final picture of the zeus - a back lit close-up look into the bores - appears to be a much faster twist than that in the m-f supra barrel....really going to give things a whirl.

the supra barrel turns less than a full revolution in the 70cm barrel length. it would seem likely that the faster the twist, the more pronounced the dispersal of shot would be....and it also occurs to me that there would likely be some difference between a shell built with typical one piece plastic wads, and one using a built-up wad column with shot charge bearing directly on the barrel walls.

best regards,
tom

Thank you guys for your quick responses and interest. To be honest I don't know why we thought it was a model 222 - probably because there is the number under the top lever 222 114511.
Pictures of the barrels

https://ibb.co/j3b2DHK

And

https://ibb.co/rwLRw7L

https://ibb.co/5BcDrpc

And the how gun

https://ibb.co/ysLLH78

https://ibb.co/tYJzL3g

https://ibb.co/JQKgtWR

https://ibb.co/2Y9MrbC

I just want to clarify that the rifle has original parts but has undergone external upgrades. My old man is a geek on this subject and has a lot of free time. He has been working on guns for over 35 years.
I guess for some it is unacceptable to violate the authenticity but there are different people with different taste .

Again thank you for the support guys!

first thing i would say is that,.. beauty is in the eye of the beholder - and your father is within his rights to create what he wishes, in that regard. while the gun might not be pleasing to all eyes, there is little question that he has a great deal of skill, and has lavished much time and effort onto this project.

now i will make some observations that (might) pertain to the age, and origins of the gun: argo has amended his original posting of dates and model numbers, and now shows listings for 1930 production. his list shows several grades above 32-S, whereas, the document that i have at hand does not. we are only privileged to see an extremely small number of truly high grade m-f guns in the usa. some of those few i have seen photographed, are quite elaborately finished. therefore it is difficult to know to what degree this gun has been customized.

the document that i have, shows production of robusts from 1913, through 1980, and total production of somewhere around 950,000 guns. there is no known listing that will correlate serial numbers with the year of production (an advantage that we have with m-f ideal models). one of the few "handles" we can use to estimate times of production are, 1) the changing of model designations in 1931, and 2) the changing of production offerings following the second world war. both of those transitions are shown within argo's listing on page 6.

the thing that has me puzzled, is how the gun could have both pre-war, and post-war model designations present. the serial number is clearly shown on the forearm lug, and you state that it is repeated on the top strap under the lever. my #226 is numbered 184688, and that model was only cataloged from 1932 until production ceased in 1940....i have always assumed it to be mid to late 1930's. your gun would then predate mine, by some 70,000 - and yet, it has a post-war model number??

at this point, perhaps fab500, canvasback, or some other person can step in and provide additional insights....and i will be as interested in new information as you are!

best regards,

tom

I can't offer much more either. I'd be inclined to think with the SN that it is a 32-S or at least the stock is. I will post the pictures so everyone can see them without clicking. It's clear that Ivan's Pop sure loves that gun.



The barrels have that long, slow, full barrel twist that Tom discussed and not the six inches of twist "choke". Do the barrels look slightly pitted?








I once was staying at a small hotel in Sofia in about 1999 or 2000 - up on the mountain, winter time with snow on the ground. At a bar in the late afternoon were two Brits, a Bulgarian girl and a couple of other foreigners. They were talking about a plot to assassinate Slobodan Milošević in Serbia. It was an elaborate scheme and included crossing a 400 m deep gulch on a rope to get into a castle. I was privately making notes to give to the embassy security officer when I realized they were making a movie.

As they described the planned night-time assault I was picturing a print I have of the Castle of Souli in Epirus. .

Nice of Tom to think of me. Not sure I can add much to the discussion, although I have been following ti with interest. IMHO it's clear it was built as a Model 32-S. What happened subsequent to original manufacture is anybody's guess.

Having said that, my disclaimer is that I spend most of my MF energy looking into Ideals and have only a passing knowledge of Rubusts.

Positively fascinating! I can't imagine a better way to plot the assassination of a head of state than openly discussing the top secret plans within earshot of a stranger with a notebook. The scene described is quite vivid, but we are left wondering if the Bulgarian chick looked like a hot girl in a James Bond film, or like a female Eastern Bloc weight lifter on anabolic steroids?