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Argo44 Offline OP
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And by the way, the extant or identified Serial Numbered gun list on p.57 is now up over 500 guns and climbing, thanks to a lot of help from this board.

In addition, the history on p.54 has been extensively modified as historical ads and records were looked at a second time.

Last edited by Argo44; 09/24/21 01:28 PM.

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============ academic investigation - don't read unless you're into 1885 gun esoteria ================
-- Review of July 1885 closure of 2 rue Scribe, Paris
-- Review of what is known about 29 rue Faubourg, Saint-Honoré


I. July 1885: Closure of the 2 rue Scribe, Paris:

In late July 1885 rue Scribe was closed. The reasons for this are not known - hand made guns were being sold at a very high rate; it may have had to do with the departure of a long-time partner (possibly a M. Poirat? M. Poirat was the agent for Reilly in 1871, mentioned in French parliamentary records when Reilly tried to sell the stock of Chassepot rifles in Birmingham to the French Republic.).

Case/trade label before closure of rue Scribe: 16, New Oxford Street, 277 Oxford Street and 2 rue Scribe + 1867 Paris Exposition medals:

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

The key indicator for adopting this closure date are the advertisements which appeared in the most popular London newspapers. In late July 1885 rue Scribe was mentioned - in early August 1885 it had disappeared from otherwise identical ads and from print in general.
. . . . .24 Jul 1885 Bell’s Life . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .08 Aug 1885. Bell’s Life
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

The last extant SN'd gun with rue Scribe is 27340, address on the rib being “New Oxford Street, London & rue Scribe, Paris.” It is a 12 bore SxS top-lever, hammer-gun, shotgun (no photo).

II. 1885-1886: Possible satellite Paris address at 29 rue Faubourg, Saint-Honoré, Paris

Sometime circa late 1884 or early 1885 Reilly apparently opened a small satellite branch of 2 rue Scribe, Paris at 29 rue du Faubourg, Saint-Honoré, Paris for a short time.

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

Six different gun cases with the above label have been found with this address. One such label appears on SN 26880, a gun dated to Feb 1885

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

However, this label also is found in a case housing SN22432, dated 1880 and bought by a man who died in 1882 (The label is loose- could have been added much later).

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

The rue du Faubourg labels are generally in the classic post 1861 Reilly format but are not scolloped. They feature the usual main 16, New Oxford Steet address with the 277 Oxford street branch; the rue du Faubourg address is located where 2 rue Scribe had been for 17 years. The labels illustrate the 1867 Paris medals in the upper left hand corner and the 1884 London international exposition medals in the right. This seemingly dates these labels and correspondingly the existance of this shop from late 1884 or early 1885.*122

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

There is an argument as to whether rue du Faubourg existed after Reilly closed 2 rue Scribe. The argument is summarized below:

. . .A. Evidence against the existance of rue du Faubourg after 31 July 1885 closure of 2 rue Scribe:

. . . . .1. No newspaper advertisements for this branch exist. It was a prestigious location - Coco Chanel's apartments were above it in another century. It should have been publicized by Reilly had it been more than a transient sales shop.

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

. . . . .2. No extant guns have thus far been found with this address on their ribs.

. . . . .3. After July 1885 there is no mention of “Paris” in any of the Reilly advertisements in the mass popular daily papers.

================ 29 rue du Faubourg - continued below =========

Last edited by Argo44; 09/24/21 08:50 AM.

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================ 29 rue du Faubourg - continued ===============

. . .B. Evidence for the existence of rue du Faubourg after July 1885.

. . . . .1. Location: In addition to very fashionable Paris shops, Some Parisian gun makers had factories/workshops/show rooms on rue du Faubourg. The road was also the heart of the English speaking community living in Paris during the “Belle Epoch.” Both the British and American Ambassadors' house were on the street. To open a sales-shop in that area would seem to be a logical Reilly commercial decision. (Pirlet built revolvers in that building in the photo - yes, that was a "factory.")

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

. . . . .2. Guns with Paris: There is a matched pair of Reilly guns with 1886 serial numbers 27853, 27854 – i.e. after the closure of 2 rue Scribe - which have "Paris" on their barrels built on the Scott "triplex" system.

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

And an 8 bore SN 28290 with “2 rue Scribe, Paris” remaining on the rib and with “Choke” on the flats (pre 1887):

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]


. . . . . . .-- Counter argument:
The guns or barrels of the pair could have been labeled before the closure of 2 rue Scribe and used a year later. Certainly the 8 bore barrel was engraved before Jul 1885.

. . . . .3. 1886 advertisements: There are magazine advertisements stretching into 1886 for Reilly at "Paris."

. . . . . . . .Feb 1886 “Bradshaw Guide” . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Jun 1886 “Freemason”
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

. . . . . . .-- Counter argument: Some of these are long term advertisements that were not changed over a couple of years.

. . . . .4. Scroll work: New scroll work is found on the bottom of the rue du Faubourg label. This scroll work is almost (but not quite) identical to that found on the 16, New Oxford Street label which was used after the closure of rue Scribe and which has no Paris address at all. (Note the difference between "self extracting" on the Faubourg label and "ejector" on the "no Paris" label)

Top: . . . . Scroll work on pre-Jul 85 label with 16, 277 and rue Scribe
Middle:. . .Scroll work for 16, 277, rue du Faubourg label
Bottom:. . Scroll work on label with only 16 & 277/no Paris.

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

. . . . . . .-- Counter argument: The scroll work on the rue du Faubourg label seems to precede that later used on the stand-alone 16, New Oxford Street label with no Paris address and is slightly different. Perhaps the rue du Faubourg label preceded the 16, New Oxford Street label.

. . . . .5. Signor Giuseppe Guidicini: A paid-for article appeared in the January 1886 London press touting a win at the Monte Carlo pigeon shoot by Italian champion pigeon shooter Guidicini using a Reilly with the rue du Faubourg address.*127

. . . . .28 Jan 1886, "Sportsman" . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 29 Jan 1886, "Morning Post"
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

Monte Carlo was the most pretigeous international pigeon shooting event; Guidicini won it three times.

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

Whether the address was on the rib of his gun or on the trade/case label is unknown. Guidicini’s gun likely was built by Reilly in London at the beginning of the 1885 pigeon shooting season spring 1885, Monte Carlo being the last event of the 1885 shooting year. And, the question remains, "who placed those paid-for ads in four London Newspapers in late January, early February 1886?" It likely was Reilly which might indicate the retail store was still open at that time (or that Reilly still felt the need to have a "Paris connection").


. . . . . . .-- Counter argument:
The gun may have only had the London address on the rib and Guidicini took the rue du Faubourg shop address from the label. Spring 1885 as a construct date for the gun would leave open the possibility of rue du Faubourg closing in July 1885.

For now pending a review of Parisian property records, the existance of rue du Faubourg from circa early 1885 to early1886 will be presumed. The lack of advertising for the shop is perplexing, however, and this question will continue to be investigated. And this is a pretty weak supposition.

(OK OK...This is utterly pedantic...but pedantics also have their place and we were trying to date guns as precisely as possible when the whole enterprise started).

Last edited by Argo44; 10/12/21 09:31 PM.

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Re 2 rue Scribe and 29 rue du Faubourg: Commercial data exists in the archives of the Commune de Paris records per their website - it is not on-line.

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

Wrote them an email:

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Cher Monsieur ou chere madame,
Mon amis l’historian Dominique François m’a conseille de prendre contact avec vos services pour assurer la precision des informations pour mon livre sur un armurier Irlandais E.M. REILLY. Après l’Exposition Universelle de Paris de 1867, ou il a gagné la medaille d’or, il est devenu un “Arquebusier pour l’Empereur Napoleon III” (“Fournisseurs Brevette de S.M. l’Empereur”).
En Fevrier 1868 il a créé une société française “E.M. REILLY & CIE.” et a ouvert une armurerie a 2 rue Scribe, Paris. Je pense que cette armurerie a ete fermée en Juillet 1885.
Il est possible qu’il ait ouvert pendant quelques mois entre 1885-1886 une autre armurerie au 29, rue du Faubourg, Saint-Honoré, a Paris.
Vous serait-il possible de trouver confirmation de ces dates dans vos archives ainsi que les noms des gérants des deux armureries.
Je vous remerci de votre collaboration et vous prie de recevoir mes meilleurs salutations.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Their response was not encouraging....I may have to travel to Paris:

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
La salle de lecture des Archives de Paris est désormais ouverte au public les lundis de 13h30 à 17h30 et du mardi au vendredi de 9h30 à 17h30, sans rendez-vous et selon les conditions exposées en page "Actualités" de notre site web.
Le traitement des recherches à distance concerne des recherches pour des nécessités administratives et pour des documents non librement communicables en salle de lecture. Les informations délivrées sur notre site relatives aux recherches à distance restent valides et des outils d'aide vous permettent de mieux appréhender nos ressources, avant votre visite dans notre salle de lecture.
Les instruments de recherches numérisés y sont aussi accessibles, ainsi que plusieurs typologies de documents numérisés.
Ne surchargez pas notre messagerie, merci de votre compréhension.
Cordialement,
L’équipe des Archives de Paris

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Edit 28 November: I received a second negative response below and sent the below follow-on reply:

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Cher Monsieur,

Après des recherches approfondies dans nos fonds je n’ai pas trouvé de trace des deux sociétés de M. Reilly. Cela peut s’expliquer par le fait que l’enregistrement d’une société n’est pas obligatoire avant 1920. En effet, le créateur peut choisir de l’enregistrer au tribunal de commerce (ce n’est pas le cas ici) ou par acte notarié. La recherche dans ces fonds est plus compliquée car elle nécessite la date exacte de la création et non des tranches chronologiques assez larges comme celles fournies.

Je suis donc au regret de ne pouvoir plus vous aider,

Cordialement


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Chere Madame ;

Merci pour votre aimable réponse. Je crois qu'il y a des dossiers annuels sur quelles entreprises étaient dans quelles rues de Paris. Voici un exemple de votre site Web pour 1885.

1885
2 bobine
2 mi 3 87 : Liste alphabétique : A-Z
Professions A – Hôtels
2 mi 3 88 : Professions : Hôtels - Z
Liste des rue de Paris : A-Z
Seine

Pourrais-je demander à l'un de vos attachés de recherche de passer en revue les deux volumes pour 1885 et 1886. Pourraient-ils s'il vous plaît vérifier qui occupait le 2 rue Scribe et le 29 rue du
Faubourg, Saint Honoré pendant ces années. Ce serait d'une grande aide pour mes recherches et pour mon livre.

Merci pour votre aide.

Last edited by Argo44; 11/28/21 07:35 AM.

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======================================================================
Editing a section of the history-Reilly in early 1880's:


Lots of new bits of information...not the least of which the query about whether London gun makers made box locks. So this section of the history has been added to. Note: JPGBOX has reduced the size uploads. Bothersome in the extreme. (first paragraph re Reilly possibly making guns in the white for other gun dealers in the early 1830's will be expanded upon in a separate post).

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Reilly in the Early 1880's:

Reilly's business was booming and gun production topped 1000 a year. Reilly reportedly was making long guns for other London gun-makers. Note: there is a suspicion that with his large industrial spaces (by London terms) that he was doing this for many years - see the Reilly-Purdey kerfuffle from 1866. As an example:
. . .-- a James Beattie percussion gun made circa 1835 has been found with the locks labeled “Reilly,” a possible indication that Reilly made the gun in the white for Beattie, this in the very early years of Reilly making guns.
. . .-- In 1832 Reilly offered special deals for “country gun makers.”
. . .-- Wilkinson marketed at least on Green Bros Breech loader circa 1868; since Reilly was the sole manufacturer of the Green Bros patent, Reilly had to have made that gun for Wilkinson.

He also around this time allegedly (not confirmed) began importing cheap Belgian-made revolvers in parts which he assembled in his buildings, engraved and sold. (Reilly, like Trantor and others, possibly was involved with the Belgian manufacture and "assembly trade" much earlier...perhaps dating to as early as the 1850's).

In early 1880 Reilly adopted the boxlock (Anson & Deeley 1875 Patent) and began building them in significant numbers, apparently in marked contrast to other London gun makers. The boxlock looks to have been frowned on by London gunmakers for some reason, possibly as being "plebeian." Yet Reilly publicly embraced it. It fitted his anti-establishment style and his model for selling to the guys actually on the ground carrying their own guns. It may be that Reilly, always a gambler on technological innovation, decided that its simplicity and durability were the future of shotgunning, a conclusion reinforced by early 1880’s writings. However, at the same time Reilly was dramatically expanding serial numbered production from 650 to over 1000 a year and the A&D boxlock would certainly have simplified the manufacturing process. Either that or Reilly simply began to avail himself of Birmingham produced boxlock actions and finished them in London which would also be logical (as previously speculated).

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

The first surviving Reilly box-lock is SN 22482 (1880), a 12 gauge top-lever shotgun, A&D Patent use number 1156.*xxx Almost 30% of the surviving Reilly’s from 1881 to 1912, both rifles and shotguns, are boxlocks.
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

In addition in January 1882 he advertised for the first time guns equipped with Whitworth compressed fluid steel barrels (originally an 1865 patent extended in 1879 for 5 years).*xxx
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

The first extant Reilly with a confirmed Whitworth barrel is SN 24365, a 12 gauge SxS pigeon gun with 31” barrels - top lever, side fences, low hammers, flat file cut rib. It is dated per the chart to 1882.*xxx
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

(There is a Reilly .500 SxS BPE rifle from 1876 SN 19953, which appears to have steel barrels; however they may be blued Damascus, the gun description being minimal.)
http://www.rockislandauction.com/viewitem/aid/64/lid/534
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

He exhibited at the 1882-83 Calcutta fair (a British Empire only affair) and won a medal and was highly praised for his exhibit at the 1884/85 London International Expositions where he again won medals.

Note there were three different international expositions in London in 1884-85; An exposition at Crystal Palace; the International Health Exposition of 1884; and the International Inventions Exposition of 1885. Reilly apparently won a gold medal at the Internation Health Exposition per the medals on his labels though why shotguns were exhibited there is unknown – he publicized them only as “London Exhibition 1884.”
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

Reilly also won a silver medal at the International Inventions Exposition in 1885 but did not publicize it; The Reilly exhibit at this exposition is described in Wyman.
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

Reilly guns figured very well in live pigeon shooting contests throughout the 1880's.*113
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

=============== Continued below ======================

Last edited by Argo44; 11/29/21 06:32 PM.

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================ Continued from above =======================

Big game hunters in Africa used his guns and advertised the results including noted Victorian era African hunter and author Frederick Selous, Samual Baker and Henry Morton Stanley, the Welsh-American and perhaps the most famous of all African explorers, Dr. David Livingston (below):
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

Henry Morton Stanley, the most famous African explorer of them all:
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

Sir Samuel Baker, the most famous Victorian hunter of all, of course, began using Reilly heavy rifles in the early 1850’s, had Reilly build explosive shells for him, and continued to use his Reilly connection to the end of his hunting life as previously mentioned. Excerpt from the The Rifle and the Hound, 1854 by Samuel Baker, reprinted in 1872:

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

Last edited by Argo44; 10/10/21 11:18 PM.

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The next "History of Reilly" update will be footnoted. It will include picture proofs on the reasons for the conclusions arrived at - there are some 250 of these with articles, advertisements, pictures, background paintings, photos, personalities, streets, etc.

Here is a paragraph from the introduction of that history:

"The history includes analyses and some logical suppositions and conclusions. These are, however, supported by articles and advertisements and the history as now written is solidly sourced. It corrects or updates dozens of writings on the company most of them erroneous, including Brown's Vol III, Boothroyd, and just about every article written about Reilly in the last 50 years. Footnotes are provided for each paragraph, indeed each sentence, below. Challenges to this research should be as well documented, not just based on "urban legend."

Last edited by Argo44; 10/10/21 11:08 PM.

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Research that challenges long-held beliefs and the status quo usually gets brickbats, slings and arrows and there have been enough of these thrown at this line (to be expected). This Reilly .500 BPE SN 19954 just sold. The vendor graciously mentioned the research done here. This is gratifying. Thanks. (Note: This gun may be the first extant Reilly with a top lever.)
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/910907588

Provenance: The Malcolm King Collection; Sold by Bonhams at London, Knightsbridge as lot number 64 on April 2nd, 2008; Thanks to Gene Williams for conducting the painstaking research into E.M. Reilly's history, serial numbers, and production chronology.

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

Last edited by Argo44; 10/07/21 11:23 PM.

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Argo44, you should have jockeyed to be the new custodian of that 500 BPE??

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

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The history on p.54 has been updated with all the extra information from above. It's gotten really long...35-40 pages now if it were printed out..and it goes into detail - probably too much for a book - re arguments for and against on controversial sections. That'll be whittled down in the final draft for publishers but, in view of the fact that this study is calling into question embedded preconceptions, I felt this detail was needed. It is still a good read and as a side benefit will acquaint a reader with a cursory outline of the history of UK gunmaking in the 19th century. It will be refined as other information becomes available of course.

Thanks to this board for the help including the criticism (which provoked and forced a doubledown on some research elements that never would have been looked at) and professional/peer review (likewise)...without which a lot of this data would not have come to light.

Last edited by Argo44; 10/14/21 06:57 PM.

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