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Joined: Jan 2003
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Hi Fellas:

I have examined a very nice made and engraved 16-ga boxlock for a friend, with German-style gamescenes, Greener crossbolt, and sideclips. Haven't be able to find much on Herr Kuntze of Leipzig, except one drilling offered at Julias some time ago, also high-quality. Would anyone know a bit more about him? The drilling at Julia's has German proofmarks, but this gun's action and barrels are from Liege. The Liege proofmarks indicate it was made sometime between 1892 to mid- to late'-20s.

The stock, with a cheekpiece, and the engraving appear very German. The bores, chambers and chokes are pristine and exactly match the specs it was proofed at. Neither the bores nor the bluing have ever been touched, and it has been well cared for. Wall thickness .028" R and .028" Left.

The odd thing is that the barrels were never Nitro proved -- it has Liege's provisional and definitive Black Powder proofs. Seems a bit late for BP only?

The barrels are of Cockerill Steel but 'steel' is spelled in German "stahl"

I'm speculating but thinking a barreled action was sourced in Liege but stocked and engraved in Germany?

Any thoughts most appreciated -- I'm a bit outside my comfort zone with vintage German guns and would love to learn more.

Many thanks,

Sincerely,

Vic

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Sidelock
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Achtung! I see I misspelt’ the retailer’s name. Correctly it is : Kuntze

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Sidelock
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Looks like Büchsenmacher E. Kuntze was active post WWI @ least till the mid 1930s. Not sure prior to that?

I would say he either sent a parts kit to the talented mechanics in Liège or he placed an order with them to increase his profit margins. Germany would have been overseeing that area during this time & there was reciprocity between the proof houses but I would expect to see some German touchmarks if it were a re-barrel? Too, would the retailer send it back to Liège for a rebarrel effort or get something closer?

Serbus,

Raimey
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Sidelock
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It is 200km to Suhl and 600km to Liège from Leipzig.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

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Sidelock
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Thank you, Raimey:

Both action flats and barrel flats bear Liege proof marks, and only Liege marks, though there may be the maker's trademark on the flats as well, does not appear Liege proof stamp.

Your help much appreciated.

Vic

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Sidelock
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If you would pleasure us by posting some pics or forward them to me, I am sure we can determine what the marks might be?

Serbus,

Raimey
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Sidelock
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“Overseeing” seems a rather over polite term for the German occupation of Liege 1914 to 1918 if that is the period you are referring to?

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Sidelock
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That's just the type guy I am.


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

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Sidelock
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No, the Germans were in management and overseeing production in Liège from the mid to late 1890s till WWII. The Germans didn't make any run of the mill rough bored tubes but rather purchased all their rough bored tubes from the talented mechanics in Liège. Too, the Germans pushed the Liège makers around forcing them to update their proof rules to match those of Liège in order to have reciprocity and sell their wares to the Germans. FN, Pieper, etc., had German management or were German natives. The Germans wanted to capitalize on large production and cheap labour of the talented mechanics in Liège. I believe the Suhl makers possibly sourced Liège more than Zella - Mehlis?

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

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Thanks, I understand now,

Parabola

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