doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion German & Austrian Sporting Guns @ doublegunshop.com E. Kunstze, Leipzig: 16-ga SxS with Liege Proofs

Hi Fellas:

I have examined a very nice made and engraved 16-ga boxlock for a friend, with German-style gamescenes, Greener crossbolt, and sideclips. Haven't be able to find much on Herr Kuntze of Leipzig, except one drilling offered at Julias some time ago, also high-quality. Would anyone know a bit more about him? The drilling at Julia's has German proofmarks, but this gun's action and barrels are from Liege. The Liege proofmarks indicate it was made sometime between 1892 to mid- to late'-20s.

The stock, with a cheekpiece, and the engraving appear very German. The bores, chambers and chokes are pristine and exactly match the specs it was proofed at. Neither the bores nor the bluing have ever been touched, and it has been well cared for. Wall thickness .028" R and .028" Left.

The odd thing is that the barrels were never Nitro proved -- it has Liege's provisional and definitive Black Powder proofs. Seems a bit late for BP only?

The barrels are of Cockerill Steel but 'steel' is spelled in German "stahl"

I'm speculating but thinking a barreled action was sourced in Liege but stocked and engraved in Germany?

Any thoughts most appreciated -- I'm a bit outside my comfort zone with vintage German guns and would love to learn more.

Many thanks,

Sincerely,

Vic

Achtung! I see I misspelt’ the retailer’s name. Correctly it is : Kuntze

Looks like Büchsenmacher E. Kuntze was active post WWI @ least till the mid 1930s. Not sure prior to that?

I would say he either sent a parts kit to the talented mechanics in Liège or he placed an order with them to increase his profit margins. Germany would have been overseeing that area during this time & there was reciprocity between the proof houses but I would expect to see some German touchmarks if it were a re-barrel? Too, would the retailer send it back to Liège for a rebarrel effort or get something closer?

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

It is 200km to Suhl and 600km to Liège from Leipzig.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Thank you, Raimey:

Both action flats and barrel flats bear Liege proof marks, and only Liege marks, though there may be the maker's trademark on the flats as well, does not appear Liege proof stamp.

Your help much appreciated.

Vic

If you would pleasure us by posting some pics or forward them to me, I am sure we can determine what the marks might be?

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

“Overseeing” seems a rather over polite term for the German occupation of Liege 1914 to 1918 if that is the period you are referring to?

That's just the type guy I am.


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

No, the Germans were in management and overseeing production in Liège from the mid to late 1890s till WWII. The Germans didn't make any run of the mill rough bored tubes but rather purchased all their rough bored tubes from the talented mechanics in Liège. Too, the Germans pushed the Liège makers around forcing them to update their proof rules to match those of Liège in order to have reciprocity and sell their wares to the Germans. FN, Pieper, etc., had German management or were German natives. The Germans wanted to capitalize on large production and cheap labour of the talented mechanics in Liège. I believe the Suhl makers possibly sourced Liège more than Zella - Mehlis?

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Thanks, I understand now,

Parabola

Belay my comment about this gun not being Nitro Proofed. In my haste and in my focus on the Belgian proof marks on the action and barrels flats I did not initially notice the German Nitro Proof markings on the lower section of the barrel and also on the action flats before I posted above.

Those are lame excuses for my inattentiveness, but I had to make up something.

Raimey will likely be along soon to post some pics I sent him, and offer more detail on the proof marks and other cryptic markings. What a font of expertise. Thank you, Ellenbr!

Vic

Passed thru the Zella-Mehlis proof facility in August 1910. Kuntze ordered it @ a minimum of <<in the white<< from the mechanics in Liège. He added his initials & a serial number plus some other effort then sent the longarm to the Z-M proof facility to Nitro Proof as noted above.




Very unique toplever that looks to mate w/ the top tang safety?

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Nr. 3352 w/

EK(E. Kuntze) Nr. 94


Wears the Perron, so it was brought to a state of completion in Liège.

Acier Cockerill Liege - ACL in a circle(Many Thanks Dr. Hause w/ his Belgian Ocular)

HD as Henri Devillers(one solution?)







>>Nitro, N Surmounted by a Crown, German Imperial Eagle<<

It appears that E. Kuntze applied some effort after sourcing the Anson & Deeley Body Action platform from the talented mechanics in Liège and then either he or the client wanted to be on the forefront of technology and the new German proof rules, so in Summer of 1910 E. Kuntze submitted the longarm for >>Nitro<< proof(coupled w/ the N surmounted by a Crown on the water-table) and E. Kuntze was pressing the envelope as the new proof rules were't in-force till 1911.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

The toplever & top tang safety again for those following along.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Safety Just looks way close to top lever I would imagine it’s of the automatic type?

True, it could be an optical illusion?

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Hi Raimey:

Thank you for all the information. It is a conventionally place top safety; optical illusion, indeed.

The barrels are essentially untouched, remaining true to their proof mark specs. It is a very well constructed gun, and by its condition was well cared for before and after its voyage to America, presumably accompanying a homebound G.I.

Very interesting about the Nitro proof of 1910/11.

How common was it for German makers/retailers to use Liege barreled actions with Liege proof marks?

And am I correct in guessing that E. Kuntze is another of many German gunmakers whose history has vanished?

Thanks once again.

Vic

Well, when the German firearms merchant wanted to really increase his profit margin, he would order from the talented mechanics in Liège, but most of the time he would ask that the marks be hidden or worn so that the end user couldn't discern if the firearms merchant of record actually made it or not. Too, reciprocity played a large part on whether the
Belgians marks were present or not. But all run of the mill barrels of German steel were sourced as rough bored tubes from Liège. Actually the German steel makers granted a license to Belgian steel makers in the area to make bar stock from a German steel recipe. Even Sauer sought trademark protection in Belgium. But almost always you wouldn't find a German firearms merchant to order a Belgian platform with Belgian inland steel. That is the reason that E. Kuntze had the Cockrell Steel noted as Stahl. Just part of the overall grand deception to increase the Benjamins.

Yeah, the ledger is probably somewhere unless it was donated on a paper drive or similar? If it survived, with Leipzig being behind the iron curtain, the mentality is the >>what's in it for me<< mode.


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

By the way, that rules change for the proof facility of Zella Sankt Blasii - Mehlis was on September 1st, 1911 whilst the Zella Sankt Blasii - Mehlis rules were adopted by Suhl in April of 1912 and I have no idea why the date variance.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Thanks to Wolfgang's mining efforts, indeed Erich Kuntze was a Büchsenmacher and it appears there is info in the Archives in Dresden(Sächsisches Staatsarchiv) I believe??


Serbus,

Raimey
rse