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Hello all. Have a Manufrance 32ga. It is a small double hammer. There is a serial I believe on the end of stock. If I am reading it correctly under my loop appears the numbers are 4297 stamped in wood. Anyone have an idea of year? Has anyone seen a 32 Guage in this brand?

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Shane's 32 ga Manufrance:

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

Last edited by Argo44; 01/08/22 04:02 PM.

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-- Crown over PJ - semi-smokeless (1896)?
-- Yet chambered in mm?

I'm wondering if this gun is 1885-1889?
..or, if Manufrance ignored the changeover to c.m. in 1889?
..or, if the gun were reproofed in 1896?
..or, if PJ was used earlier?
..or. with the "6" and "5" that far apart, maybe the decimal didn't print?

The 32 bore looks vaguely similar to this gun (I didn't keep all the photos unfortunately):

3). 1885-1889 Manufance under lever hammer gun; 75mm chambers; 17.4 (14 gauge). Manufance was founded in 1885; the chamber is in mm thus 1889 or earlier.
http://www.naturabuy.fr/Fusil-juxtapose-...em-3799057.html
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

- - - - -Discussion of PJ semi-smokeless powder - - - - - - -

(Per Larry: "Engelhardt's original article shows the PM proofmark and says: "For barrels proved with smokeless R and M powders, adopted May 14, 1898. But it does not show a PR proofmark. He also shows only the PJ proofmark when referring to both J and S powders, which were adopted together on March 30, 1896.").

And: (But interesting in going back to Journee--which I don't do as often as I should--I found that there are 4 different varieties of J. In addition to just plain old J (or J-0--I can't do the sub-numbers), there are also J1, 2, and 3. According to Journee's chart, while they all have the same % of nitrocellulose, they differ in the number of grains per gram. T has the highest % of nitrocellulose: 98%, compared to 83% for the J's, 71% for M, and 65% for S.)

Last edited by Argo44; 01/08/22 05:50 PM.

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This would appear to be the one recently posted on FB SxS goup?


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If the SN is 4297, and if this is an "Ideal" then it would date to about 1889 - early 1890: - but then how to account for being proofed for PJ?

"(Per) official document furnished by the head office of the manufacturer on page 45 of the 1898 catalogue. Here below is the total production of the IDEAL shotguns for the first 10 years (11,732 shotguns produce in total):

1887: 630
1888: 1,152
1889: 1,925
1890: 2,713....."


Chart posted on p. 10 of the "Dating early French Shotguns"

Last edited by Argo44; 01/08/22 05:27 PM.

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Gene,
Prior to PT being designated the only proof powder, one could specify which powder they wanted a gun proofed with. For a few years after 1900, people were asking for proof with powder S, as it could develop higher pressure at proof than powder T.
I think it was the elusive “Wild Cattle” that found this little bit of trivia for us, but, I would guess it has been years.

I haven’t seen much of him lately.

Best,
Ted

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Last we heard from him he was "swamped"....hence the name "Bete enlisse".


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I have a somewhat newer Manufrance product - made for Marlin - a mid quality pump 12 gauge that I bought new for $80 back around 50-60 years ago. Still works, but I have long since switched to Parkers and the old pump is no longer used.


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Gene--I'd guess that 65 is the chamber length, either missing the decimal point or else in mm and too much space between the numbers.

Likely a pretty unique little gun, given the gauge.

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Originally Posted by crs
I have a somewhat newer Manufrance product - made for Marlin - a mid quality pump 12 gauge that I bought new for $80 back around 50-60 years ago. Still works, but I have long since switched to Parkers and the old pump is no longer used.

Colt, Montgomery Wards, Marlin, and probably a few more sold those “LaSalle” pumps, that bore the proof marks of the St Etienne proof house. Alloy receiver, have seen at least one 16 gauge, well made and dependable.

Best,
Ted

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Two other questions:
-- Looks like a modern fore-end? Anson?
-- And what are those screws on the fences all about?

Another picture:
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

Last edited by Argo44; 01/08/22 06:14 PM.

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Originally Posted by canvasback
This would appear to be the one recently posted on FB SxS goup?


It appears to be the same one.

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Anson Pushrod on the forend. And I think there was a definition w/ Purdey in the mix too?

I believe those screws retain the strikers?

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Let me have a last go at dating the gun - waiting for FAB:

-- Manufrance - must be post 1885.
-- Ideal? If so must be post 1887.
-- Chambered in mm? We have theorized that in 1889 Saint-Etienne changed to using cm for chamber length so this is an anomaly discussed above. I personally think there should be a decimal between the 6 and 5.
-- It is stamped with the "Cycles" address so must be post 1892.
-- Proofed PJ so probably between March 1896 and 1900 when PT became standard.

-- There's a problem of the SN 4297 which would date to February 1890....if that's a SN and if it's an Ideal....

Last edited by Argo44; 01/08/22 08:16 PM.

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I think this gun was listed and relisted on GB
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/919234185
Relisted
https://www.gunbroker.com/Item/920834637

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5K ?

Always the optimist I guess.

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Originally Posted by RARiddell
I think this gun was listed and relisted on GB
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/919234185
Relisted
https://www.gunbroker.com/Item/920834637
Yes I did put it up on that site. The story is, I bought the gun from a guy on another site. He was told it was a 410, and found out it wasn't. I got it and put away in my safe this summer. Decided to list it as he told me it was a 28 Guage, and I have since purchased two newer 28's. I bought some 28ga shells since, and surprise they didn't work when I recently tried to put in the gun. Brought the gun to Orvis. The gunsmith at Orvis was able to check the Guage. So it's a 32 Guage chambered at 2.5" so it is marked correctly. Between the barrels has a number 28 which is likely why the seller told me it was a 28 Guage and also why I thought the same. I have some fioci 32 Guage shells now thanks to the guys at Orvis. I am a bit afraid to shoot but sure it's probably just fine and was told by the gunsmith I could. It's a tight gun and on face. No issues with the barrels. I have seriously considered keeping this gun in my collection, but have just so many 21+ and limited space. Trying to get down to just guns I will continue to use as this is the first year I have started to bird hunt, and I am a lefty. It's hard to be a collector with a family of 4 in a small home 😥 I know this Guage was meant for quail, but how would it do on Pheasant? Rabbit? Obviously not Turkey though I would love to try.

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Originally Posted by Argo44
Let me have a last go at dating the gun - waiting for FAB:

-- Manufrance - must be post 1885.
-- Ideal? If so must be post 1887.
-- Chambered in mm? We have theorized that in 1889 Saint-Etienne changed to using cm for chamber length so this is an anomaly discussed above. I personally think there should be a decimal between the 6 and 5.
-- It is stamped with the "Cycles" address so must be post 1892.
-- Proofed PJ so probably between March 1896 and 1900 when PT became standard.

-- There's a problem of the SN 4297 which would date to February 1890....if that's a SN and if it's an Ideal....

Gene, you are confusing me. Clearly, it is not an Ideal. Why are you bringing Ideals into the discussion. There is good anecdotal evidence that Manufrance used separate serial number sequences for different models of guns until after WWII.


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Originally Posted by Shane Reed
Originally Posted by RARiddell
I think this gun was listed and relisted on GB
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/919234185
Relisted
https://www.gunbroker.com/Item/920834637
Yes I did put it up on that site. The story is, I bought the gun from a guy on another site. He was told it was a 410, and found out it wasn't. I got it and put away in my safe this summer. Decided to list it as he told me it was a 28 Guage, and I have since purchased two newer 28's. I bought some 28ga shells since, and surprise they didn't work when I recently tried to put in the gun. Brought the gun to Orvis. The gunsmith at Orvis was able to check the Guage. So it's a 32 Guage chambered at 2.5" so it is marked correctly. Between the barrels has a number 28 which is likely why the seller told me it was a 28 Guage and also why I thought the same. I have some fioci 32 Guage shells now thanks to the guys at Orvis. I am a bit afraid to shoot but sure it's probably just fine and was told by the gunsmith I could. It's a tight gun and on face. No issues with the barrels. I have seriously considered keeping this gun in my collection, but have just so many 21+ and limited space. Trying to get down to just guns I will continue to use as this is the first year I have started to bird hunt, and I am a lefty. It's hard to be a collector with a family of 4 in a small home 😥 I know this Guage was meant for quail, but how would it do on Pheasant? Rabbit? Obviously not Turkey though I would love to try.

I know a few guys who are quite successful with .410 on turkey. Using TSS handloads.


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Originally Posted by battle
5K ?

Always the optimist I guess.
I have been thrown many numbers up to that amount. So started high and left open to offers. I have no clue of true value not being able to find another anywhere on line in this brand.

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Originally Posted by Argo44
Let me have a last go at dating the gun - waiting for FAB:

-- Manufrance - must be post 1885.
-- Ideal? If so must be post 1887.
-- Chambered in mm? We have theorized that in 1889 Saint-Etienne changed to using cm for chamber length so this is an anomaly discussed above. I personally think there should be a decimal between the 6 and 5.
-- It is stamped with the "Cycles" address so must be post 1892.
-- Proofed PJ so probably between March 1896 and 1900 when PT became standard.

-- There's a problem of the SN 4297 which would date to February 1890....if that's a SN and if it's an Ideal....
The number 4297 is stamped in to the wood just above the butt plate and on top. Was this a common location for a serial?

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Ah, I think those are waaaay too optimistic.

I couldn't locate a Manufrance hammergun, but a hammerless Manufrance on the following website:

https://www.interencheres.com/meubl...rophes-tableaux-299111/lot-30299063.html

Serbus,

Raimey
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Originally Posted by ellenbr
Ah, I think those are waaaay too optimistic.

I couldn't locate a Manufrance hammergun, but a hammerless Manufrance on the following website:

https://www.interencheres.com/meubl...rophes-tableaux-299111/lot-30299063.html

Serbus,

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rse
Definitely not an apples to apples comparison. Though I am really not worried about a sale. I like digging up history more, and conversation. This one is definitely something I feel worth getting the noodles going on. Looking at above posts appears to be quite a mystery, and those are fun!

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No, not a true apples to apples comparison by no means. I looked on egun.de but didn't see anything right off and I am sure there would be one on Naturalbuy but 32 bores are somewhat rare but don't realize high values. Most of the 32 bore platforms were poacher type platforms and of Belgian origin. I carry such a Belgian type platform with me daily & shoot it often.


Yes, the thrill of the chasse for info chasseurs on these only gems. Indeed it is intoxicating.


Serbus,

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I found something else on the water table when looking under loop. Not sure if it has any meaning? There are the letters CH very fine on the front left side.


Also pulled listing so we can concentrate on the gun with no monetary side track. I also collect watches "military" primarily, and love when I dig up mysteries like this in that collecting.

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The initials >>CH<< were more than likely those of the Stephanos frame filer. Mechanics added their initials for compensation and liability.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

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Originally Posted by ellenbr
The initials >>CH<< were more than likely those of the Stephanos frame filer. Mechanics added their initials for compensation and liability.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse
I was leaning toward that as well. It's not stamped heavy like the other markings.

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I put Ideal in "?" just in case. Eliminating the ideal from the dating equation doesn't change much of anything.

The fact it was 32 bore should have been evident from the 13.0 stamped on the water table.

1898 catalog for Manufrance exists. -great document with complete explanations barrel manufacture, powders in use, proofing, chokes, etc.
https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k97891530.texteImage

This looks like the model (this is black powder - semi smokeless on p.70 of the catalog):
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

Last edited by Argo44; 01/09/22 01:02 PM.

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Originally Posted by Argo44
I put Ideal in "?" just in case. Eliminating the ideal from the dating equation doesn't change much of anything.

The fact it was 32 bore should have been evident from the 13.0 stamped on the water table.

1898 catalog for Manufrance exists. Someone must have a copy:

https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k97891530.texteImage
The link you just showed with book, in thumbing through pages for whatever that year is; only shows 20, 16, and 12 ga

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I looked on Naturabuy this morning. No MF hammer guns and no MF 32 (or .410).

But I’ve seen them in the past.

Last edited by canvasback; 01/09/22 01:02 PM.

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>>La liste de la Chambre Syndicale des fabricants d�armes de 1948-1951 compte 105 adh�rents, chiffre inf�rieur � celui inscrit � la Chambre des m�tiers, mais qui permet de trouver les plus repr�sentatifs de la corporation dans cette longue liste class�e par ordre alphab�tique :

Alloni, 12 boulevard Valbeno�te ;
Andr� et Cie, 14 place Tardy ;
Automoto, 38 rue Gutemberg ;
Balp, 3 Cours Victor Hugo ;
Bancel Marcel, 17 rue Louis Blanc ;
Basson, 13 rue du Grand Gonnet ;
Berger Louis, 60 rue Mulati�re ;
B�riola P., 13 rue Louis Blanc ;
Bergeron Louis, 7 rue Desflaches ;
Bertois Fr�res, 40 rue des Armuriers ;
Blanchard-Grange, 67 rue Antoine Durafour ;
Blondeau, 7 place Villeboeuf ;
Bonnard, 34 rue du Mus�e ;
Boucher, 12 rue Jean-Baptiste David ;
Bouniard et Barri�re, 17 rue de l�Epreuve ;
Boyer A., 62 rue du 11 Novembre ;
Breuil Jean (canonnier), 13 rue Montesquieu ;
Breuil Claude (canonnier), 4 rue du Rozier ;
Brenier & Cie, 68 rue Antoine Durafour ;
Bretton Ren�, 6 Cours Fauriel ;
Canonnerie St�phanoise, 13 rue du Vernay ;
Celle Claude, 5 rue Emile ;
Chambon Fr�res (remplac� par Jean Luquet), 38 rue Jean-Baptiste David ;
Chanson Jean, 40 rue Badouill�re ;
Chapuis, 11 rue Basse des Rives ;
Charlin, 18 rue B�ranger ;
Chartron, 3 place Desno�tte ;
Chataing & Durand (m�canique), Saint-Bonnet-le - Ch�teau ; Chaussadis, 50 rue Jean-Baptiste David ;
Chausse Claude, 21 rue Charles Rebour ;
Chausse (jeune) 9 rue Charles Rebou ;
Chavot (canonnier) 34 rue Cl�ment Forissier ;
Chevillard, 8 rue du 11 Novembre ;
Courtial et Debraye, 14 rue Jean-Baptiste David ;
Constant Pierre (second� par son fils Jean-Marie, Saint-Maurice en Gourgois (Loire) � qui succ�dera son fils Pierre ;
Damon, 7 rue des Francs-Ma�ons ;
Darne R�gis, 71 Cours Fauriel ;
Darne Francisque, 69 Cours Fauriel ;
Diard, 16 rue Cl�ment Forissier ;
Donnet et Racodon, 31 rue des Armuriers ;
Douplat Fr�res, 38 rue Badouill�re ;
Dupont, 11 rue Cuvier ;
Emonet, 12 rue Pierre Termier ;
Escot et All�gre, 6 place Villeboeuf ;
Faure Joseph, 19 rue des Armuriers ;
Faure Henri, 10 rue Cl�ment Forissier ;
Faure Victor, Le Bois d�Avaize ;
Faure Alphonse, 17 rue Claude Delaroa ;
Fayard, 77 rue Antoine Durafour ;
Foussard Lucien, 7 place Villeboeuf ;
Garnier Raymond, 55 rue Claude Delaroa ;
Gaucher Jean, 12 rue Docteur Cordier ;
Gaspard & Cie, 4 Cours Fauriel ;
Gautey, 20 rue Ferdinand ;
Gerster, 61 rue Michelet ;
Giraud Louis, 18 rue Charles Rebou ;
Giraudet, 22 rue de Terrenoire ;
Giraudon, boulevard Poincar� ;
Gonon & Portafaix, 8 rue Villeboeuf ;
Grange, 13 rue des Armuriers ;
Guichard Henri, 66 Cours Fauriel, � qui succ�dera Georges Granger ;
Guichard Maurice & Cie, 20 rue Montferr� ;
Guignand & Pailleux, 76 rue Antoine Durafour ; Guillot, 11 place Villeboeuf ;
Heurtier (canonnier), 28 rue Cl�ment Forissier ;
Humbert, 52 Cours Fauriel ;
James (canonnier), rue du Cimeti�re ;
Janisson, 28 Cours Fauriel ;
Jay Michel, rue Antoine Durafour ;
Jeay Georges, Le Grand Quartier � Sorbier ;
Jeury Victor, 24 rue Badouill�re ;
Lasherme, 99 rue Antoine Durafour ;
Laspoussas-Driol & Cie (repreneur de Berthon et Didierfusil devient S.I.F.A.R.M.), 8 place Villeboeuf ;
Latcher L�on (repris par Plotton & Barret), 131 rue Antoine Durafour ;
Leyre Pierre, 30 Cours Fauriel ;
Maisonnial Aim�, 13 rue Cl�ment Forissier ;
Manufacture Fran�aise d�Armes et de Cycles, Cours Fauriel ;
Manufacture Nationale d�Armes, 2 rue Javelin Pagnon ;
Marnas, 13 rue du Rozier ;
Marsault, 6 boulevard Valbeno�te ;
Martin-Dubost, 38 rue Badouill�re ;
Mathieu, 25 rue Badouill�re ;
Maumey Jean-Baptiste, 35 rue Mulati�re ;
Meunier, 7 rue Jean-Baptiste David ;
Montagny A�n�, 48 rue Gambetta ;
Montcoudiol Lucien (M�canique), Saint-Bonnet-le-Ch�teau ;
Odegaard, quartier de Beaulieu ;
Oriol P�re & Fils, 58 boulevard Valbeno�te ;
Oriol (canonnier, 22 rue Rouget de l�Isle ;
Pascal, 7 rue Pierre Blachon ;
Pelletier Yves, 35 rue Mulati�re ;
Peugeot, 46 rue Gutemberg ;
Philippon Marcel P�re & fils (repreneurs d�Autechaud & Bonnavion), 17 rue Pierre Termier ;
Piat, 22 Cours Gustave Nadaud ;
Picard-Fayolle, 42 rue du Vernay ;
Pichon, 31 rue C�sard Bertholon ;
Plotton & Barret, 96 rue Antoine Durafour ;
Picot Fr�res, 10 rue Jean-Baptiste David ;
Merley & Pouly (canonnier repreneur de Fanget), Andr�zieux ; Mondiale, 2 Cours Fauriel ;
Preynat, 21 rue des Armuriers ;
Ressayre, 8 Boulevard Valbeno�te ;
Rey (successeur de Brun-Latrige), 7 Cours Fauriel ;
Reymond, 40 rue D�sir�-Claude ;
Ribe L�on, 104 rue Antoine Durafour ;
Ribeyre, 60 rue Mulati�re ;
Rivolier P�re & Fils, 21 rue C�sard Bertholon ;
Roullier-Baume, 4 bis rue Badouill�re ;
Roux Louis, 3 rue du Vernay ;
Sabatier, 31 rue du 11 Novembre ;
Sabot Francisque (canonnier), 67 rue C�sard Bertholon ;
Sabot Joann�s, 14 rue des Francs Ma�ons ;
Saillant Prosper, boulevard Valbeno�te ;
Salanon, 21 chemin des Accacias ;
Saunier, 3 rue Jules Vall�s ;
Sauvinet, 31 rue C�sard Bertholon ;
S�lect-Armes (Victor Jourgeon), 103 rue Antoine Durafour ;
Seytre-Montagny, 68 rue Mulati�re ;
Sigaud Fils, 56 Cours Fauriel ;
Soleilhac, 12 rue des Armuriers ;
Soulier, 83 rue Antoine Durafour ;
Staron, 14 rue des Francs-Ma�ons ;
Soci�t� G�n�rale de M�canique, 6 Cours Fauriel ;
Soci�t� Moderne de Fabrications M�caniques (Rouby & Montuclard), 56 rue Tarentaize ;
Thivillier, 4 rue des Armuriers ;
Tissot, 8 rue Tr�filerie ; Tournaire, 4 rue Arago ; Vacher, 2 rue Jean-Baptiste David ;
Vassal (remplac� par G�rard Geffroy), 13 rue Franklin ;
Verdiell, 16 rue de Champagne ;
Verney-Carron, 17 Cours Fauriel ;
V�rot, 36 Cours Fauriel ;
Villebonnet, 61 rue Liogier ;
Zavattero, 24 rue Jean-Claude Tissot.

source: Forissier<<

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=511812&page=all

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Originally Posted by canvasback
I looked on Naturabuy this morning. No MF hammer guns and no MF 32 (or .410).

But I’ve seen them in the past.

Any memory on price asked?


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Salut,

Ce fusil est un modèle n° 180. Comme on peut le lire sur la page du catalogue, il était destiné aux femmes et aux jeunes hommes.
Il est dans les catalogues de 1910 à 1914 et ne réapparait pas après la première guerre mondiale.
Sur le canon gauche, on peut y voir la charge d'épreuve ainsi que la charge d'utilisation.
En France, sa valeur ne va pas au-delà de 500 €.

Ted l'a très bien souligné. Ce sont les fabricants qui choisissent le type de poudre, ainsi que la charge en France. Après 1923, ce ne sera plus le cas.


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No "and Cycles" on the catalog page. Not sure this is the right catalog....plus this one is 28 pages long when the entry says it's at least 70
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Great info & well worth the 500 Euros.


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Originally Posted by Argo44
I put Ideal in "?" just in case. Eliminating the ideal from the dating equation doesn't change much of anything.

The fact it was 32 bore should have been evident from the 13.0 stamped on the water table.

1898 catalog for Manufrance exists. -great document with complete explanations barrel manufacture, powders in use, proofing, chokes, etc.
https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k97891530.texteImage

This looks like the model (this is black powder - semi smokeless on p.70 of the catalog):
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]
This is very close ! The other add posted from 1914 is different. When the barrels are open there is no metal that comes out of the stock on top. So I would say it's definitely in the 1890's; many catalogs on the site you posted. To narrow down, I would have to hit the laptop and not use this android phone. Very hard to scroll these catalogs on phone; then throw French in the equation. 😁

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Ah...Merci Fab, Nous vous attendions! Translation:

This gun is a model Nr. 180. As one can read in the catalogue, it was meant for women or young men.
It is in the catalogs from 1910-1914 and did not reappear after the First World War.
On the left barrel, you can see the proof as well as the use marks. In France it's value is not more than 500 Euros.

Ted very well underlined (the problem). It was the gun makers who chose the type of powder, and also the charge of power in France (for proofing the gun). After 1923, this was no longer the case.

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Originally Posted by ellenbr
Originally Posted by canvasback
I looked on Naturabuy this morning. No MF hammer guns and no MF 32 (or .410).

But I’ve seen them in the past.

Any memory on price asked?


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When I have seen MF Hammerguns (relatively few compared to the Ideals and Robusts) IIRC prices have been under 2000 euros. To narrow it a bit, 500 to 1500.

I can make no comment about how gauge may effect price on the hammerguns as they were not the focus of my interest. Ideals make up the largest number of listings followed by Robusts and then Ideal-Robusts. The impact of gauge is felt in the hammerless pricing but I would say not to the extent that it is in NA.

Disclaimer. While I spent about 5 years looking at MF Ideals on Naturabuy weekly, I have not been paying attention for about the last 3 years. Importing to Canada got significantly more difficult.

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Originally Posted by Argo44
Ah...Merci Fab, Nous vous attendions! Translation:

This gun is a model Nr. 180. As one can read in the catalogue, it was meant for women or young men.
It is in the catalogs from 1910-1914 and did not reappear after the First World War.
On the left barrel, you can see the proof as well as the use marks. In France it's value is not more than 500 Euros.

Ted very well underlined (the problem). It was the gun makers who chose the type of powder, and also the charge of power in France (for proofing the gun). After 1923, this was no longer the case.
Dave I have sent you another picture via email. Note the difference on top of barrel. Later add appears to be Damascus as well.

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Agree that this in is for someone of small stature at 39" over all length and LOP of 13.5". Would work well for me as my LOP is much shorter than average.

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Picture of the fences from Shane - No Doll's Head:

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]


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Maybe it was surplus stock/components and there was one last client for a 32 bore hammergun?

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Originally Posted by ellenbr
Maybe it was surplus stock/components and there was one last client for a 32 bore hammergun?

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When did Manufrance start making 32 ga and when did production end? Thus far have only seen 10,12,16, and 20.
Thank you Dave for knowing what I meant about "dolls head" I did not know the term.

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Originally Posted by ellenbr
Anson Pushrod on the forend. And I think there was a definition w/ Purdey in the mix too?

I believe those screws retain the strikers?

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Did Purdy have a relationship with Manufrance?

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I'm out in Africa and internet is not the best or fastest. I think it's a 1896-1900 gun and there must be something in the catalogs I can't access.

Shane, I've answered to a lot of aliases in my life :):)....but for now and for the foreseeable future, I'm known as Gene Williams, former Special Forces -Vietnam, A-233 & Macv Sog, 50 years in the Foreign Service.

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No, not that I know. I seem to remember that the name Purdey was in a definition of the Anson Pushrod or Purdey used the Anson pushrod forend latch exclusively for a time?

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Argo44, you'll answer to any name when the Cornbread fritters are ready???

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Could it have been issued a serial number earlier on but lay dormant till a later date when it was completed?

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I'll only answer to that phrase which is known world-wide as synonymous with courage, hard work, dedication, team work, and excellence. -- ROLL TIDE

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May they Roll........

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Originally Posted by Shane Reed
Originally Posted by ellenbr
Maybe it was surplus stock/components and there was one last client for a 32 bore hammergun?

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When did Manufrance start making 32 ga and when did production end? Thus far have only seen 10,12,16, and 20.
Thank you Dave for knowing what I meant about "dolls head" I did not know the term.


MF was known for changing things up regularly, including their model designations. Without a specific catalogue listing from the year a specific gun is made, if the model designation is not on the gun, it's impossible to know what it was. Something that was designated model X one year could be designated model Y the following. Gauge is the same. In one year, out the next. Using catalogues from years other than the year of Mfc is just guessing. Educated perhaps but still just a guess.

And I know for a fact, having seen them, they also made 24 gauge, 28 gauge and 32 gauge. I do not specifically recall or have notes on seeing a .410.

Last edited by canvasback; 01/09/22 02:34 PM.

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Originally Posted by Argo44
I'm out in Africa and internet is not the best or fastest. I think it's a 1896-1900 gun and there must be something in the catalogs I can't access.

Shane, I've answered to a lot of aliases in my life :):)....but for now and for the foreseeable future, I'm known as Gene Williams, former Special Forces -Vietnam, A-233 & Macv Sog, 50 years in the Foreign Service.
What's on your wrist? 🤔😁

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Originally Posted by Argo44
Picture of the fences from Shane - No Doll's Head:

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]


Le modèle 180 n'a pas de tête de poupée.
Le fusil qui est en haut de la page est un modèle 200 avec une tête de poupée.

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poupée - Doll's Head. Not sure if we have this in a list?

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On the wrist? The SF "markers." Montagnard bracelet on right; Rolex Submariner on left (when I choose to wear it).

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La tete de poupée - Doll's Head - added to the vocabulary.

I recall we discussed this about a year ago....I don't think I ever added it to the original list below. Done.
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forum...rd=1&Number=480959&what=showflat

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I'm just going with Poopy Head. Works in both languages.


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Originally Posted by Argo44
On the wrist? The SF "markers." Montagnard bracelet on right; Rolex Submariner on left (when I choose to wear it).

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]
Nice! The sub was common along with the zodiac sea wolf, Omega 300, and then there were the issued Benrus type I and type II during Vietnam era the "nicer pieces" This is a shotgun site but was curious.

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Originally Posted by canvasback
I'm just going with Poopy Head. Works in both languages.
That was my first thought when I saw spelling and didn't know what it was. 🤣🤣

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I'm going to gently disagree with FAB about the date of the gun. I simply cannot believe that a 1910 Manufrance gun would be proofed for PJ. Thus, I'll stick to 1896-1900 timeframe for the gun. If another gun after 1900 proofed for PJ can be found, will reconsider.

Je vais gentiment être en désaccord avec FAB sur la date de l'arme. Je ne peux tout simplement pas croire qu'un fusil de Manufrance de 1910 serait à l'épreuve pour PJ. Ainsi, je m'en tiendrai à la période de 1896-1900 pour l'arme.

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What about all that charge / load data? When did they start scratching all that on there? Did they follow suit with the Belgians trying to shore up their case for competition with the Germans for semi-smokeless powder? There was a narrow window when similar data was scratched on Belgian tubes.

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What might be the correct French term for this type top rib?


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Any idea how to interpret / translate / decipher the load data characters?

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Originally Posted by ellenbr
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What might be the correct French term for this type top rib?


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Salut ellenbr

Sur les vieux catalogues, on y lit "bande prolongée à tenon s'encastrant dans la bascule".

Le vendeur de cet Idéal de 1907, éprouvé à la poudre J, l'appelle tête d'aspic.

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Originally Posted by Argo44
-- Crown over PJ - semi-smokeless (1896)?
-- Yet chambered in mm?

I'm wondering if this gun is 1885-1889?
..or, if Manufrance ignored the changeover to c.m. in 1889?
..or, if the gun were reproofed in 1896?
..or, if PJ was used earlier?
..or. with the "6" and "5" that far apart, maybe the decimal didn't print?

The 32 bore looks vaguely similar to this gun (I didn't keep all the photos unfortunately):

3). 1885-1889 Manufance under lever hammer gun; 75mm chambers; 17.4 (14 gauge). Manufance was founded in 1885; the chamber is in mm thus 1889 or earlier.
http://www.naturabuy.fr/Fusil-juxtapose-...em-3799057.html
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- - - - -Discussion of PJ semi-smokeless powder - - - - - - -

(Per Larry: "Engelhardt's original article shows the PM proofmark and says: "For barrels proved with smokeless R and M powders, adopted May 14, 1898. But it does not show a PR proofmark. He also shows only the PJ proofmark when referring to both J and S powders, which were adopted together on March 30, 1896.").

And: (But interesting in going back to Journee--which I don't do as often as I should--I found that there are 4 different varieties of J. In addition to just plain old J (or J-0--I can't do the sub-numbers), there are also J1, 2, and 3. According to Journee's chart, while they all have the same % of nitrocellulose, they differ in the number of grains per gram. T has the highest % of nitrocellulose: 98%, compared to 83% for the J's, 71% for M, and 65% for S.)


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Salut Argo,

Le poinçon F couronné nous indique que le fusil a été éprouvé à la poudre noire après 1896.

Je n'ai toujours pas eu de retour du Banc d'épreuve de Saint-Etienne. Je vais faire une relance, mais je n'ai pas beaucoup l'espoir d'avoir une réponse.

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Thanks for three things FAB:
-- The PJ proof mark on a 1907 Ideal. I would never have thought one could find PJ that late. I wonder if the numbers behind PJ might be the J powder number variant identified by Journee? And I think all of us are surprised.
-- The French phrase for "sunken rib" which will be added to our vocabulary.
-- And the "crown over F" black powder proof mark. I have been unable to find a date for it. There must be a more complete Saint-Etienne proof mark list someplace. So that gun is a Manufrance with a chamber measurement in mm with with an 1896 proof mark. This does call into question the 1889-1912 postulation we made about chamber lengths only in cm.

I believe there is someone who is an expert on Saint-Etienne gun production. I will try to have my in-laws make some inqueries.

- - - - - - - -translation- - - - -

Merci pour trois choses FAB:
-- Le PJ poinçon sur un 1907 Ideal. Je n'aurais jamais pensé qu'on pourrait trouver PJ aussi tard. Je me demande si les chiffres derrière PJ pourraient être la variante du nombre de poudre J identifiée par Journee? Et je pense que nous sommes tous surpris.
-- L'expression française pour "sunken rib" qui sera ajoutée à notre vocabulaire.
-- Et, le poinçon F couronné pour la poudre noire. Je n'ai pas pu trouver une date pour "F". Il doit y avoir quelque part une liste d'épreuves plus complète de Saint-Etienne. Donc ce fusil de chasse est un Manufrance avec une mesure de chambre en mm avec un poinçon de 1896. cela remet en cause la postulation de 1889-1912 que nous avons faite sur les longueurs de chambre uniquement en cm.

Je crois qu'il y a quelqu'un qui est un expert de la fabrication d'armes à Saint-Etienne. Je vais essayer de demander à ma belle-famille de me renseigner.

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Absolument Argo. Le fusil a été éprouvé avec 4,20 grammes de poudre J2 et 30 grammes de plomb.

Les PS et PJ datent de 1896.
Les PM et PR datent de 1898.
La PT date de 1900.
Le poinçon F couronné date de 1898.

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Translation:
Absolutely. The gun was proofed with 4.20 grams of J2 powder and 30 grams of lead.

PS and PJ date from 1896
PM and PR date from 1898
PT dates fron 1900
The Crowned F stamp (black powder) dates from 1898.


Ted and Larry....in reference to the discussion you had in the "Dating Early French Shotguns" line re "R" powder and whether there were variants of "J" proofs, p. 7&8....
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=484199&page=8
Looks like the scales come down on Larry's side at this time re variants of J. Wildcattle was adamant there was no "R" powder. Journee doesn't mention "R" per Larry.

Whatever, I would like to know what was the proof mark for black powder before the "Crowned F."

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Salut Argo,

En 1898, pour bien différencier visuellement l'épreuve pyroxylée de l'épreuve poudre noire, le Banc d'épreuve de Saint-Etienne a créé deux nouveaux poinçons : le F couronné, épreuve simple des fusils finis, et le S couronné, épreuve supérieure des fusils finis.

Avant 1898, il n'y avait pas de poinçon pour l'épreuve à la poudre noire des fusils finis .

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[Linked Image from i.goopics.net]


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Catalogue Verney-Carron 1901

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I was traveling for 10 weeks and just got home. Will translate this tomorrow. Very good material.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

In 1898, to visually separate the proof of pyroxylite powders from black powder proof, the Saint-Etienne proofhouse created two new stamps: the "crowned F" simple test for finished rifles, and the "crowned S" superior test for finished guns.

Prior to 1898, there was no stamp for black powder proofing finished rifles.

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first photographed page:

The Pyroxylite powders comprised 5 types differentiated by the color, the odor, and the pressures they created. The types are:
-- Type J (2)
-- Type S (3)
-- Type M (4)
-- Type R (5)
-- Type T (1)

Pyroxylite J Powder:

Of all the types of pyroxylite powder, Type J is the closest of the bunch to black powder per the reports on its pressure regularity. It can therforee be used without any inconvenience in moderate charges in all the central fire percussion guns of good make which have been regularly proofed.

J powder at a medium distance gives a very good grouping for ball, and is very recommendable per this report. On the other hand it produces more smoke and recoil than the other powders, type M,R,T and S, and leaves on the walls of the barrels a greenish residue which can rust the metal if one doesn't take the precaution of rigorously cleaning the gun after hunting.

J powder is yellowish color, its grains are irregular and it emits a pronounced oder of ether.

J powder includes three numbers:
-- J1 for use in 12 bore guns
-- J2 for use with ball
-- J3 for use in guns 16, 20 and 24 bore

J powder costs 2.85 francs per 100 grams and is loaded per the following chart:

-- Caliber 12: 3.5 to 3.8 grams using 36 grams of lead
-- Caliber 16: 2.5 to 2.8 grams using 30 grams of lead
-- Caliber 20: 2 grams to 2.2 grams using 26 grams of lead

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2nd photographed page:

Table of comparative smoke generation by French hunting powders.
Photographed at 1/50th of a second, 1/4 of a second after discharge by the electronic camera of Count H. Perpigna.

PHOTO 1: Smoke released by Black Powder
PHOTO 2: Smoke released by Pyroxylite J
PHOTO 3: Smoke released by Pyroxylite M
PHOTO 4: Smoke released by Pyroxylite R
PHOTO 5: Smoke released by Pyroxylite S
PHOTO 6: Smoke released by Pyroxylite T


Baluch are not Brahui, Brahui are Baluch
Joined: Feb 2016
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3rd photographed page:

PYROXYLITE POWDER proofed in finished guns:

At our initiative, the special Proof House for finished guns organized some 4 years ago added two new proofs:
-- one for guns proofed with Pyroxylite S; and the other for guns proofed for Pyroxylite J.
And finally to give complete satisfaction to everybody, proofs for Powder M and R have been working since May 1898 and Proofs for powder T since 1899.

Table for proof charges for Pyroxylite powder for finished guns.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
| CHART 1 (self evident)|
| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |

Note: Each gun is accompanied by an official bulletin from the Proof House of Saint-Etienne, indicating the powder charges and lead weights used for the proof, the length of the chambers and the weight and length of the barrels, It is well known that the delivery of guns with the proof marks of finished arms protects us from civil liability.

- - - - - - - - - -

IMPORTANT OBSERVATION: Charges used by the Proof House are extraordinary and must not in any case be used in guns not adopted for them and for use in hunting weapons. The cartridges for Pyroxylite powder must not be loaded with heavier charges than those indicated on the box sold by the State and which are the following:

Table of normal charges of Pyroxylite powder that the hunter must never exceed:
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
| CHART 2 (self evident)|
| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |

Last edited by Argo44; 01/18/22 10:48 PM.

Baluch are not Brahui, Brahui are Baluch
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Sidelock
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Joined: Apr 2018
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our history detectives are hard at work....many thanks to fab500 and argo...

best regards,
tom


"it's a poor sort of memory that only works backwards."
lewis carroll, Alice in Wonderland
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