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battle Offline OP
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reinforcement for a cracked frame perhaps?


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I'm with Bill. A short chamber 1912 16g

[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]

A 12g

[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]

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Interesting. I (like everyone else) have heard about cracked Flues frames for decades, but I've only seen it a handful of times and most of those were 20's. For years I've had a complete flues 16ga receiver that needs a set of barrels and forend, but I haven't run across a cheap set of barrels. For years I have guessed that cracked frames are relatively rare based only on how few sets of orphaned barrels are on the market! Depending on where this ends up, looks like a good candidate for the barrels

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I have a 12ga Flues with a cracked frame. It is cracked in the thin area on the right side water table. When I was a 13, my dad let me take his Flues out to shoot pigeons with a buddy.
He gave me a box of the green Remington high brass express, he always used. Both barrel discharged at the same time. I thought it had exploded. When we looked the gun over, there was a hairline crack . When the gun was disassembled, the rear trigger spring was broken. The crack was repaired, and the gun was refinished. My son still shoots it with sub 7k reloads.

Bill

Last edited by ithaca1; 01/21/22 03:03 PM.

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I had a 12ga Flues that a turkey hunter had damaged with God knows what loads. The recoil broke the screw that held the trigger plate to the action, but the frame was fine. Modern turkey loads in a 7# hundred-year-old gun aren't a good idea.

The restocked, patched-up gun pictured does look like a good donor gun for an action that needs barrels. You'd have a stash of action parts as well, and wood for the stove.


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Years ago, there was a guy here who went by the board name of Greg Tag. He kept track of Flues failures. IIRC, most or maybe all of them were 20's, they were very light, and at least in some cases the owners had fired "light" 2 3/4" factory loads through them. Often inexpensive stuff from big box stores. While they may have been light in terms of shot charge, they weren't necessarily light in terms of pressure. He'd pretty much identified that as a common factor in quite a few of those 20ga Flues guns. The frame typically cracked right where the standing breech meets the water table.

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I remember Greg's posts. I would think pressure is to blame for barrel failure, and recoil is to blame for frame failure. Especially frame failure right at the standing breech, the apex of the wishbone so to speak.

It seems to me that cheap "dove" loads recoil faster than better ammo of the same shot weight and muzzle velocity, possibly due to the fast-burning powder used. I save promo loads for the BPS, because they won't hurt it and who cares if they do?


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Some years ago on one of Doc Drew’s blown barrel threads I mentioned that I’d recently seen info from a shooter on another site who’d sent some of the “light” 1 oz Cabelas/Herters rounds off for testing. My best recollection is that they came back at 11,500 psi.


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Those light loads are mostly tasked with running dirty autoloaders. They do it. Mostly.

But, a question I’ve always had is if you know a gun is prone to cracking, why are people interested in them? We have collectively known that 20 gauge Flues guns often end up cracked. That sounds like a great reason to step up into a NID, or a Western Arms, or a Nitro, or, some other piece of Americana that doesn’t have a bad reputation. Unless you are into hanging them on the wall, what is the draw of these guns?

Kinda’ related, Dewey literally didn’t have a kind word to say about them.

Best,
Ted

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Good memory. It was "The Southern" chamber burst.
A sample of Cheddite for Herters “Select Field Dove and Quail” 1 oz. at 1165 fps, or the old 2 1/2 Dr. Eq. showed pressure averaging 12,500 psi with one at 13,400 psi.
Another Herters sample was measured by Tom Armbrust at 1,200 fps and 11,500 psi.

For historical comparison, DuPont Brandywine Experimental Station data cited by Charles Askins in 1933, with DuPont Bulk Smokeless Powder
16g 2 3/4 Dr. Eq. 1 oz. - 4.54 tons X 2240 = 10,170 psi plus 10 - 14%

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Sweet D M Lefever in that auction

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While we're on the topic; a Baltimore Arms Co.

[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]

and a 'Thomas Parker', which I don't know if Belgian or English

[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]

and the 'oft posted Sterly

[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]

Has anyone seen a similar crack in a Tobin?

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Originally Posted by Ted Schefelbein
Kinda’ related, Dewey literally didn’t have a kind word to say about them.

Best,
Ted
Does Dewey have any kind words in his vocabulary?
JR


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God bless America, long live the Republic.
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Drew,
First off, thank you for all you do here for the SxS community. For the sake of correcting an error I want to point out that I have objection to the first gun listed as a Baltimore Arms Company. Baltimore Arms models have scalloped breeches and the barrel flats follow the watertable profile. It is hard to make a definite identification of the pictured gun without more features, but I believe it to be either an N.R. Davis or a late model Torkelson.

John

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Originally Posted by John Roberts
Originally Posted by Ted Schefelbein
Kinda’ related, Dewey literally didn’t have a kind word to say about them.

Best,
Ted
Does Dewey have any kind words in his vocabulary?
JR

Absolutely. But, people want him to say kind words about various piles of shIt, and he won’t do that.

Best,
Ted

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Thank you John. This is a small low resolution image of what I believe to be the same gun

[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]

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Originally Posted by Drew Hause
While we're on the topic; a Baltimore Arms Co.

[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]

and a 'Thomas Parker', which I don't know if Belgian or English

[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]

and the 'oft posted Sterly

[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]

Has anyone seen a similar crack in a Tobin?

I’ve seen no cracks, but, bent frames aren’t tough to find. The guns might get wiggly enough that people quit using them.

Best,
Ted

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Originally Posted by Ted Schefelbein
But, a question I’ve always had is if you know a gun is prone to cracking, why are people interested in them? We have collectively known that 20 gauge Flues guns often end up cracked. That sounds like a great reason to step up into a NID, or a Western Arms, or a Nitro, or, some other piece of Americana that doesn’t have a bad reputation. Unless you are into hanging them on the wall, what is the draw of these guns?

Best,
Ted

I believe it's the "lightweight" thing Ted.

I've had 2 Flues 20's, one was a late gun, 1925, 28", 2-3/4" and looked like an NID with the full rounded side reinforcements, weighed about 6-9. Stout gun.

The other was an early gun, 1915, 30", 2-1/2", lighter, slanted side reinforcements, 5-12, almost a full pound less with longer barrels. This is the type you see cracked. I shot it with low pressure RST's, handled nicely. Sold for a good price, the guy wanted a light gun.


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Originally Posted by Drew Hause
Thank you John. This is a small low resolution image of what I believe to be the same gun

[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]

Drew, this second pic is a Syracuse Arms Co., hammerless. It is different from the gun in the earlier post. The profile below the breech balls varies as well as the length of the crack. I will stand with my ID of the first gun.

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Originally Posted by Ted Schefelbein
Originally Posted by John Roberts
Originally Posted by Ted Schefelbein
Kinda’ related, Dewey literally didn’t have a kind word to say about them.

Best,
Ted
Does Dewey have any kind words in his vocabulary?
JR

Absolutely. But, people want him to say kind words about various piles of shIt, and he won’t do that.

Best,
Ted

I couldn't have said it any better Ted! Dead nuts accurate. Dewey was not one to mince words or sugarcoat facts, and he knows his subject matter far better than most in his profession.

I will say though, that the vast majority of Flues guns do not have issues with frame cracking. They did OK for a mass produced machine made shotgun, and most of the couple hundred thousand or so that were built are still functional. Many do tend to be much lighter than the later NID, but a lot of that weight reduction seems to come from thinner barrels and hollowed out butt stocks. I have 4 Flues 20 ga. guns that do not have cracked frames. Two of those were purchased very cheap as parts guns because the barrels on both are ruptured in the forend area. The barrel wall thickness at that point is very thin, and I would bet neither had ever been honed.

I've told the story about the younger brother of a good friend who routinely fired 3" magnum loads in his Dad's 20 ga. Flues Ithaca without any apparent damage. I'm sure he was not doing the bolting surfaces and stock wood any favors. A lot of vintage doubles have been heavily used with loads far heavier than what they were designed for. Many hunters strongly feel that bigger and faster is better, so a higher velocity load with more shot is their chosen load. Some guns are able to take that excessive punishment better than others. Some simply break, and end up as parts, or worse, having their pictures posted here, copied and pasted ad nauseam for all eternity.

From an engineering and design standpoint, it is hardly shocking to see shotguns with frames that crack at the 90 degree juncture of the frame and standing breech. But photos of those cracks really teach us nothing without knowing what loads were used, the metallurgy of the steel, presence of internal flaws in the steel, machining marks creating stress risers, etc. One cracked Sterlingworth frame proves exactly nothing.


A true sign of mental illness is any gun owner who would vote for an Anti-Gunner like Joe Biden.

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Thanks again John.

[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]

Last edited by Drew Hause; 01/23/22 09:04 AM. Reason: N.R Davis & Sons Warner-Davis Arms added
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I imagine one can break almost anything by overloading. A local gun shop has an exploded Ruger Blackhawk on display, right over the scales and loading manuals.


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We've been discussing cracked frames, and cracked Sterlingworth frames (plural), since 2009 and I don't get why the image of one is so triggering. Unfortunately, the images here are mostly lost
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=145267&page=5

No one has implied an intrinsic design flaw in Fox frames, and AFAIK no failure analysis with photomicrographs of the fracture edges looking for defect have been done.

BTW: I asked METL to composition analyze 5 vintage double's frames and the results are at the bottom here
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dnRLZgcuHfx7uFOHvHCUGnGFiLiset-DTTEK8OtPYVA/edit

A c. 1929 Fox Sterlingworth frame was non-standard AISI 1020 with low concentrations of nickel (.07%) and chromium (.08%)
July 1, 1920 American Machinist published an Ordnance Salvage Board Surplus Property Sale of almost 75,000 pounds of “Spec. Shape Gun Steel” from the A.H. Fox Gun Co. with C .15-.25%, Mn .5-.7%, S & P < .06% = AISI 1020
https://books.google.com/books?id=ezRMAQAAIAAJ&pg=RA1-PA409&lpg

Hopefully this image won't give anyone the vapors wink Sent to me long ago by David Trevallion. A Fox HE with 2 3/4" chambers subjected to lots of 3" magnums. No one used this as evidence of a design flaw in the Fox top rib extension, but photomicrographs would have been interesting.

[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]

[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]


IMHO the take away from these images, lacking a failure analysis of each, is that guns should be used with loads for which they were designed. Pretty simple concept.

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Last edited by Drew Hause; 01/23/22 04:26 PM. Reason: Better image
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Exactly. Mauser actions are pretty stout, but shooters manage to break them as well.


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Drew,
Pick any gun built around 1905. Any gun. Can you go to the store (that means a ‘Mart of some sort, in this part of the world) and buy the correct ammunition for it?

How ‘bout a decade ago? Two decades? Three decades? Four decades?

When you get off this board, say, speaking to a young father, and his kids at church, and the topic of bird hunting comes up, do you dive into the subject of “correct” ammunition for that task?

The subject weaves around a little bit. My Father, had you mentioned pressure in shotgun loads, would have been clueless to that term. Shotguns came in one gauge (12) as far as he was concerned, and you had a choice of 2 3/4” or 3”, up until 1991, when he got his SBE. His A5 was 2 3/4”. That was that. This was a guy who instructed sniping in the USMC. Not an amateur, just not too much more concerned about his shotgun loads beyond 2 3/4” and 3” and what size shot was loaded into them. He likely would have thought pressure meant recoil, and Vise Versa.

I don’t think that is unusual for the rank and file with a shotgun in their hands on the weekend, in the fall. The average guns you can get at the “store” are not sensitive to pressure, not at a level you would see in a factory loaded shot-shell, anyway. So, most of them aren’t going to know anything about that, unless they end up here. The topic came up at the firearms safety course my wife and son took together, but, it was way too brief, and not covered in depth. As you can well imagine, Damascus was evil.

There is a fair amount of knowledge that goes into the feeding of older guns. The consensus is not always universal on that subject, either.

Best,
Ted

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The difference between when most of us started fooling with old guns, and today, is the internet.
If you google "What load should I use in my L.C. Smith shotgun?" the first link on the list is this
http://www.lcsmith.org/faq/loads.html
Knowing the author thereof, I think it, and the other FAQs, are helpful. And if the gun owner has more questions, the LCSCA Forum does not require any sort of registration.

We have this forum, and Shooting Sportsman, and Shotgun World.
And collector's forums for Parker, Lefever, Fox, and Remington shotguns.
Guys even post here looking for information about DARNEs!

Lots of (mostly good) information out there if someone is interested in looking, including documentation of turn-of-the-century loads
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1F2sQuPm05IE4VWYYnCkvuXmYEzQoWd_SQgaAfUOZEFU/edit

But folks can do what they want...and do...sometimes with bad outcomes.

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Google “What loads should I use in my Tobin shotgun?”

Let me know what you come up with.


Best,
Ted

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Google moves links up based on the number of clicks.
Hopefully this will advance with time
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1y52UbLaVsDAYd3BJLNTzTnqa7CzuhnbgonQzuYRuLvs/edit
Plenty of information here, just for the looking, and I give my email on the Home Page

Turn-of-the-Century Shotshells, Powder, Proof & Ballistics
Barrel Evaluation, Non-Destructive Testing & Load Recommendations

Shotgun Research
Belgian Shotgun Identification, Barrel Makers & Marks
A.J. Aubrey / Meriden Fire Arms
Tobin Arms
H.& D. Folsom, Crescent & Tradename Guns

This is not hard to find
https://www.shotgunworld.com/forums/shotgun-id-value.5/

The Baker Collectors site is not a discussion forum, but Daryl and Chris graciously provide their emails also
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1PqK3UImDCrsOrk6O_2DsovHXvaNSzliSiwaP35Y6PMk/edits

As I said, if a vintage gun owner has no interest in researching his gun, that is his choice, as are the consequences of that choice.
You DO believe in personal responsibility, if not for ourselves, for our friends or children in approximation to us when we pull the trigger?

For instance
A post on the LCSCA Forum in Dec. 2014 regarding a 1906 No. 0 10g; barrel composition unknown by the gentleman:
I was at a farm where a guy I have known for a couple years came out with this L.C. smith. He first shot the gun with Federal Premium Vital-Shok 3 1/2 Inch Magnum copper-plated 1100 fps 27 pellets No. 1 buck (27 pellets of #1 buck is about 2 1/2 oz.). I still have the box and 1 live shell. He fired one shell out of each barrel with no problems. I asked if I could shoot the gun...and fired 1 shell out of each barrel.
I have never seen a gun this old nevertheless shoot one. I thought it would be cool to hunt with it. I'm guessing from your comment not such a good idea.

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Originally Posted by Drew Hause
No one has implied an intrinsic design flaw in Fox frames, and AFAIK no failure analysis with photomicrographs of the fracture edges looking for defect have been done.

It certainly appeared that someone was implying an intrinsic design flaw in Fox frames when someone made this comparison to Tobin frames:

Originally Posted by Drew Hause
and the 'oft posted Sterly

[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]

Has anyone seen a similar crack in a Tobin?

I couldn't understand the motivation for posting all of these pics of cracked shotgun frames yet again, for the umpteenth time. Then Ted commented further with an accurate description of the often inappropriate loads that average hunter feeds his shotguns. And then the hysteria all came out in a reply to Ted's tongue-in-cheek comment about Googling “What loads should I use in my Tobin shotgun?” "Let me know what you come up with."

Ted got an answer with several copy-and-paste links that had nothing to do with correct loads for a Tobin. And he also got this comment:

Originally Posted by Drew Hause
As I said, if a vintage gun owner has no interest in researching his gun, that is his choice, as are the consequences of that choice.
You DO believe in personal responsibility, if not for ourselves, for our friends or children in approximation to us when we pull the trigger?

So it appears that all of the drama and photographic evidence of broken shotgun frames is born from a hysterical fear that our vintage doubles are a potential hazard than can disintegrate like a hand grenade if they are fired with the incorrect loads. And this fearsome hazard may even create a serious risk for "our friends and children in approximation to us when we pull the trigger"! And furthermore, the serious consequences of choosing the wrong shotgun shells may indicate a lack of personal responsibility on Ted's part... all because he related what sort of ammunition the average shooter buys and shoots. Shame on you Ted.

The facts remain. There is not, and has not been any serious or widespread problem with frame cracking in vintage shotguns. I mentioned earlier that around 220,000 or so Flues guns were produced before 1926. Almost 157,000 Fox Sterlingworth guns were built until 1940, along with a lot more higher grade Fox guns. And it appears that only a small handful of frames have cracked in those guns. In addition, I have not heard of a single shooter, or friend, or small child who was injured or killed when those few frames cracked. In fact, it appears that the Flues that was the subject of this thread was simply repaired with the addition of side plates, and was probably returned to service.

So while we are on the subject of personal responsibility, I feel it is irresponsible to post false and/or totally useless information about our vintage doubles. It seems that with all of these photos of shotguns with cracked frames, we don't even know the circumstances or what loads were used when they cracked. It could have happened with 3" Magnums, heavy duck loads, hot handloads, or 2 1/2" low pressure RST's. A horse could have rolled on the gun. We just don't know. It serves no good purpose to run around like Chicken Little shouting that the sky is falling and old shotguns are fracturing and blowing up. We already have enough misinformation out there about how deadly dangerous it is to fire any gun with Damascus barrels. For the average shooter, there is probably much more risk of getting hurt or killed in a traffic accident on the way to hunting or the skeet club, than getting hurt from using the occasional Super-X or Wally World promotional loads. Most truly knowledgeable guys here know by now that the major risk from using the wrong loads is causing damage to old stock wood, or causing the gun to slowly shoot loose. As I said before, the majority of these old doubles are still functional and safe to use after going on 100 years or more. Compare that record to the percentage of cars and trucks or appliances from the same era that are still serviceable and safe. The sky is NOT falling!


A true sign of mental illness is any gun owner who would vote for an Anti-Gunner like Joe Biden.

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This thread started with a question regarding what is very likely a cracked frame Flues, and the discussion, and pictures, thereafter were relevant.

A.H. Fox Gun Co. made it very easy to choose loads; from the 1914 catalog courtesy of David Noreen. And shell boxes at WalMart still are marked by ounces and Dram Eq. Unfortunately, IMHO ignoring the shell length specifications is a problem. Bell's study was of 12g loads; there is no modern data for 2 3/4" 20g or 16g shells in short chambers; esp. regarding the 1 1/8 20g loads available today, like the Federal Premium Wing-Shok.

[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]

Here's Remington's, also courtesy of Dave

[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]

Parker, Lefever & Hunter Arms Co. provided similar recommendations, and if one had the curiosity, the pressures of these loads are found here
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1F2sQuPm05IE4VWYYnCkvuXmYEzQoWd_SQgaAfUOZEFU/edit

I don't have a similar chart from a Tobin catalog, but Tobin did say the barrels were "warranted with all nitro powders where properly loaded ammunition is used" and it would seem to be reasonable to apply the load recommendations of the other makers

[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]

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1901 Ithaca Gun Co. ammunition guide

[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]

The 20g was introduced with the Flues model, and I don't have a catalog from that era. Possibly someone could check the 20g load recommendation? Keith has 4 20g Flues and might be interested?

[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]

Circuitous twisting of what should be clearly understood statements aside, IMHO advising folks to use ammo that reproduces the ballistics of the load for which their vintage gun was designed, and as specified by the makers thereof, is quite reasonable, and might keep the users out of trouble. Of course, none of us can know what boomer loads were used by previous owners.
We're here to help wink

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Nice Flues tutorial by Researcher, an interesting exchange of letters regarding a cracked frame 10g, and comments by Miller and Larry
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=552092

I'm trying to find Greg Tag's cracked frame research - it must have been prior to 2007
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forum...mp;Board=1&main=6532&type=thread

Interesting thread with a sectioned 16g Flues frame
https://doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=41484&page=1

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I’m not sure pressure, as a factor of the new smokeless ammunition, was well understood when it came into use. In an odd twist, I doubt the internet has helped that understanding advance all that much, for the run of the mill shooter. The manufacturers of ammunition grasp its importance, but, want to limit their exposure, and deliberately are vague about specifics. Most recent boxes of ammunition I have on hand, throw the term “Max” on the box, and call it good. The loads vary in pressure from lot to lot, and the manufacturers happily tell you that, but, are mum as to what a typical pressure level would be.

SAAMI ain’t your friend, if you are shooting an old gun. I’m sure they get far more complaints about light loads not cycling a recoil autoloader, then they do from guys with old guns that suffered cracks, either in metal or wood.

As to responsible use of the old guns, I think I might have been the only guy ringing the bell, here, and at other spots on the inter web thingy, that Al Gore Jr. invented, about Tobins with bent frames, and a suspicion with the culprit being modern ammunition.

Google it.

Best,
Ted

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Originally Posted by Drew Hause
Circuitous twisting of what should be clearly understood statements aside, IMHO advising folks to use ammo that reproduces the ballistics of the load for which their vintage gun was designed, and as specified by the makers thereof, is quite reasonable, and might keep the users out of trouble. Of course, none of us can know what boomer loads were used by previous owners.
We're here to help wink


It would appear that I am now being accused of "Circuitous twisting of what should be clearly understood statements" when nothing could be further from the truth. But such an accusation was quite predictable, as was the very triggered multiple responses that were made as a reaction to my post.

There was no need for any "Circuitous twisting". I stand by the clearly stated facts that:

(1) There is no widespread problem with frame cracking in our vintage doubles.

(2) There has been no internet chatter, news reports, warnings from ammunition manufacturers, or bulletins from the Consumer Products Safety Commission of shooters, friends, innocent bystanders, or small children being injured due to a rash of frame cracking in vintage double shotguns.

(3) And there is absolutely zero evidence of the root cause of the cracks that occurred in the shotgun frames posted in this thread. That includes the Ithaca Flues that was reinforced with makeshift sideplates, and is the original subject of this thread.

Originally Posted by Drew Hause
We're here to help wink

In addition, the frantic multiple responses to these facts are not at all helpful. I think it is safe to say that probably nobody here is using turn of the century shells loaded with powders like Shultze, Ballastite, Laflin & Rand Infallible, Bulk DuPont, E.C., or New Green Walsrode. That information is not at all relevant to the subject here. It hasn't been relevant for well over 50 years, and neither are the vintage advertisements. If the intent was really to help, then we would have been better served by something like current low pressure factory loads (which most of us here are already aware of), or confirmed and tested low pressure handloads. Even better would have been some effort to actually determine some of the facts surrounding the small number of cracked frames that occur, instead of conjecture and hysterical accusations about a lack of personal responsibility.

In one of the several links provided, I found it interesting that R.D. Show, who sectioned the cracked 16 gauge Flues frame shown here, mentioned that the material seemed harder at the juncture of the frame and standing breech. But this observation was purely subjective, and no Rockwell Hardness or other metallurgical testing was done. Again, there is absolutely no information about what loads were used when that particular frame cracked. So there is still no relevance or helpful information.

Even more interesting was the report from Ithaca1 early in this thread. Bill told us he has a 12 gauge Ithaca Flues with a cracked frame. We do have a very good idea what caused that particular cracked frame. He had both barrels discharge at the same time, probably due to insufficient trigger sear engagement caused by the broken rear trigger spring, and he was shooting "green Remington high brass express" shells.

The double discharge caused a hairline crack that was subsequently repaired, and he states the gun is still in service using sub-7k reloads. From that first hand observation by Ithaca1, we can indeed learn something. The rest... not so much. I'm pretty well versed in the use of RCA (Root Cause Analysis) as a means of determining the cause of machinery failures, and coming up with predictive and preventive maintenance, or engineering solutions. However, the use of WAG (Wild Assed Guessing), paired with totally unrelated copy-and-paste fluff, is not helpful at all. In this event, it merely adds to the already widespread belief that many of these old double barrel shotguns may be dangerous, and ought to just be hung on the wall at the local Cracker Barrel.

Take cover... Triggered Response incoming....


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There is no mention of pressure in any turn-of-the-century maker's load recommendations, and I certainly agree that had shooters paid attention to those recommendations (and Western Cartridge had never introduced the Super-X loads) we wouldn't have images of cracked frames, or bent frame Tobins, or maybe even Long Cracked Smiths wink but I could be wrong.

This is Royal Gun Co.'s guarantee for the use of "proper and reasonable" loads

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Pressure data was not hard to find however. Sporting magazines eventually made it even to the wilds of western Minn. and Kansas, and were filled with warnings regarding the appropriate loading of the new fangled Smokeless Powders, which some ignored, with bad consequences, and the eventual warnings regarding pattern welded barrels

The Overland Monthly, Oct. 1895 “Smokeless Powder For Shotguns”
http://books.google.com/books?id=Wv0MAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA442&lpg
3 1/4 Dram Eq./40 grains DuPont Bulk Smokeless 1 1/8 oz. (1255 fps) = 7440 psi
3 1/4 Dram Eq./44 grains “E.C.” Bulk Smokeless 1 1/8 oz. = 7584 psi
Plus 10-14% for modern piezo transducer numbers
Too much stress cannot be laid upon the weakness that has been very prevalent to overload with nitro powders, and we admit that the temptation to the uninitiated and the misinformed to put in each shell, the same amount, measure for measure, as they have been accustomed to do with black powder is very strong. This is a great mistake and it would be well to bear in mind that in handling any of the nitro powders the shooter is dealing with an entirely different compound from the old article. To those who are as yet unfamiliar with the methods of handling and loading the nitro powders, if they will use common sense which is simply to read the directions that are plainly printed upon all packages of powder, and follow these directions as to the quantity without question, they will have no trouble with their ammunition...

Even the Sears catalog tried to warn folks

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But we gotta pay attention shocked
Hatcher's Notebook, 1966
https://books.google.com/books?id=yESNUKSg5aMC&pg=PA184&lpg
“E.C.” blank powder burns with extreme speed…to give a sharp report when it is not heavily confined. An enthusiast once got hold of some of this powder, being familiar with “E.C.” shotgun powder…and loaded a bunch of shells. To try out his new load he got out his fine Lefever gun, and put up a target in the shooting gallery to get the pattern. There was a terrific detonation, and a big piece was blown out the side of the barrel near the breech, flew across the room and buried itself in a wood bench.

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It was not just the smallbore Flues frames that cracked. Here is a series of letters I picked up off ebay --

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Researcher points out that it wasn't just smallbore Flues frames that have cracked, as demonstrated by the correspondence between Ithaca Gun Co. Repair Dept. and Mr. Richard Biggs concerning a 10 gauge gun that cracked in 1932. It is important to note that The Ithaca Gun Co. Repair Dept. felt that this problem was not due to a defect in the frame, but rather that the gun was subject to some unusually high pressure or bursting strain. And there is no evidence that would support anything otherwise.

So we are still confronted with a small number of Ithaca Flues frames that cracked under totally unknown circumstances, except for the report from Ithaca1 explaining that it took a double discharge of High Brass Green Remington Express loads to cause the frame crack in his Father's 12 gauge gun. It appears evident that not only is the problem of cracked frames in Ithaca Flues guns a relatively rare occurrence, but that it probably only happened as a result of severe abuse in the form of incorrect loads.

Even with the steels available between 1908 and 1926, it is likely that Ithaca engineers probably could have designed and produced a shotgun capable of handling 2 ounce loads at 40,000 psi pressures, or more. But nobody would have bought it, nor would they want to carry it for hunting. Flues were marketed as lightweight hunting guns, and lightweight guns are not ever going to be over-engineered beasts intended for magnum plus loads. The Flues was seen as an improvement in design over the earlier Crass and Lewis models. It simply would not have remained in production for as long as it did, or sold in the numbers it did, if either the Ithaca Gun Company or customers of that era felt that it had some serious inherent design flaw. Dittos for the Fox Sterlingworth. Neither will ever be a London Best gun... nor were they intended to be.


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As observed, the letter was written in 1932. Until the 1920s, the heaviest North American factory loaded 10 gauge shells offered were 1 1/4 ounces of shot with 4 1/4 Dr. Eq. of smokeless powder in a 2 7/8 inch case. Of course the unknowing could have substituted Dense for Bulk powder, more than doubling the pressures.
The Western Cartridge Co. Super-X load Super-Ten shell with 1 5/8 ounces of shot with 4 3/4 Dr. Eq. of Progressive Burning Smokeless Powder in a 2 7/8 inch case was introduced about 1926. The Western Super-X Magnum-Ten with 2 ounces of shot and 5 Dr. Eq. of Progressive Burning Smokeless Powder in a 3 1/2 inch case was introduced in 1932.
The only pressure data I've found is from the DuPont Brandywine Experimental Station data cited by Charles Askins in 1933; note this is not for DuPont Oval but the earlier DuPont Bulk
10g 4 1/4 Dr. Eq. 1 3/8 oz. - 4.76 tons X 2240 = 10,662 psi + 10-14%

A Hunter Arms Co. Pressure Curve dated June 10, 1929 is in the McCracken Research Library, Buffalo Bill Center of the West and shows the 10g proof pressure but not 10g standard load pressures
http://library.centerofthewest.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/WRAC/id/8149/rec/107
The 12g 3” ‘Record’ with DuPont Oval and 1 3/8 oz. shot (presumed 1275 – 1295 fps) is shown at 13,250 psi + 10-14% so the 10g 2 7/8" boomer load was likely similar.

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Keith,
I didn’t realize that guns could get a crack in the frame until about the year 2000. My Dad and I would haunt gun shows, and at one of those a guy very generously showed me a cracked Flusie. My Dad didn’t care for doubles, but, I made it a point to see just about every double in a show we went to. This being fly over country, it was mostly low end stuff. I remember being thrilled to handle an engraved 16 gauge model 21 at a weapons collector show.
I’ve handled and counted at least 5 or 6 broken Flues guns since I was shown the first. I suspect, but, can’t prove, that some people play stupid, and try to sell broken guns without fessing up to it, and I have stopped pointing out a broken Flues to guys trying to sell them, because it usually gets unpleasant. I might have seen a low end Flues every other show. But, even then, I remember I saw cracked guns as often as I saw good guns.
We can speculate about how many good guns versus cracked guns there are, or what caused it, but, to me, that isn’t a very comforting argument or discussion to have about a gun to consider owning. There are other ways to own a light gun, if that is what you want.

You have been here long enough to remember the debates with the beaner’ and his “engineering” claims for his favorite brand of double, a design I washed my hands of around the same time I was shown the cracked Flues, and, for the same reasons. Years later, it was refreshing to find an honest gunsmith, in the form of Dewey Vicknair, who wasn’t interested in applying salve to people who owned crummy guns, and taking their money to bandaid the cancer on those guns. Dewey and I came to the exact same conclusions from totally different directions.

I wasn’t wrong in dismissing a few designs, out of hand. I work too hard for my time in the field to be troubled with substandard equipment. My experience has been if there is a bad one out there, it is trying to find me.

Best,
Ted

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I appreciate your input Ted. It would be interesting to know the circumstances behind the relatively few cracked Flues guns you have seen personally. My actual experience is far different. I wish I had the admission money alone for all of the Gun Shows I have attended over the past 30 years or so. And I have often wondered how many screaming deals I missed on rifles and handguns, because I became very focused on finding and looking at every side-by-side double, along with associated parts. barrels, stocks, etc. In all that time, and all those miles, I still have not personally seen even one Flues with a cracked frame, other than a couple repeatedly pictured here. I mentioned the four 20 ga. Flues guns I own, and two are parts guns with blown barrels. I also own a 12 and a 16 ga. Flues, and none of those has a cracked frame.

Just for kicks, I Googled "Ithaca Flues cracked frame" and seriously expected to see a fair number of actual instances of cracked Flues. I urge others to do this for themselves. I have little doubt that the Preacher has been frantically searching for a rash of cracked Flues in order to prove me wrong. There were a couple hits for older posts right here on DoubleGunShop.com, along with several others from various other firearms forums. A quick read of those results showed mention of only a couple actual broken Flues frames over the 15-20 years. However, there were numerous queries from guys who had heard about all of the horror stories, yet also had not seen the problem with their own Flues guns. There was mention of the research done by Greg Tag, but no actual report or numbers. And all of the anecdotal evidence I saw pointed to guns that cracked simply because they were fired with extremely heavy and inappropriate loads. Of course, there was mention of guys who foolishly used data for black or bulk smokeless powders to concoct loads with newer and much more potent nitro powders. When you push a gun, car, airplane, or any other machine well past it's engineering design limits, some weaker element is likely to yield or break. Here's a representative sample of a couple posts from DuckHuntingChat.com --- https://www.duckhuntingchat.com/threads/ithaca-16-ga-double.166439/

QUOTE-- McDerry said:
"Also consider looking into some lower pressure rounds for the recievers sake. The flues is netorious for cracking the frames. RSI makes some low pressure soft non toxic loads for use in those old doubles."


Yep. Part of what made the Flues such a nice handling shotgun was that very petit frame. When compared to most of today doubles, the frame of a Flues 12 is more like a modern 20. I have always heard about the Flues tendency to crack frames but I've never conversed with anyone that had actually seen a cracked Flues frame and it seems that the Flues started to be known for cracking frames around the time that the big Olin/Winchester paper hulled 3" loads came out. Chamber length wasnt stamped on most Ithaca doubles so I tend to believe that the frames were being broke by the huge pressure spikes caused by the shot charge being crammed through the mouth of a thick paper hull that was crammed into a much to short chamber. But just to be safe I feed my Flues hevi shot classic doubles.


Mention was also made concerning a "photo that seems to float around on Double Gun Shop bbs". Care to make a wild guess where that came from???

So it appears that somewhere along the line, the Flues got a bad reputation as being "netorious" (sic) for frame cracking, even though the scant evidence concerning the issue points to guns that were abused in some manner. I'm not especially fond of Flues guns. I like my Syracuse Lefevers much more, even though they have their weak points as well. I also still have several L.C. Smiths, even though I am well aware of their weak points too. Dewey Vicknair states that the cause of frame cracking in Fox guns is allowing the barrels to simply fall open, and the hammers stopping abruptly against the inside of the action flat places undue stress on the frame along the barrel hook opening. This act will not endanger small children or innocent bystanders though. If I ever found a great deal on a nice Tobin, I'd likely buy it, and then PM you to ask what I should feed it. What concerns me way more than cracked frames or weak stock heads is the possibility of falling while hunting, and having an accidental discharge while using a gun that was designed without intercepting sears.

There was a thread in the Custom Rifle forum here concerning a low-number Springfield that blew up a couple years back. There was a lot of hand-wringing and criticism of the rifle. There were scary pictures of a shattered gun, and shattered shooting glasses that saved the owners' eyesight. Blame was not only placed on the gun, but also on the time-proven handload that was used when it blew up.

As it turns out, the remains of that Springfield were sold, and the buyer had metallurgical testing done on the fractured action, and on another low number Springfield, for comparison. Long story short, the conclusion reached by the metallurgists (who were gun guys) was that the gun blew up due to a single extreme pressure event. I have a PDF copy of that metallurgical report, and can email it to you if you'd like to read it. Very interesting stuff! Unfortunately, the actual probable cause was never posted here to counter the hysteria in the earlier Thread. So naturally, people who read that original account are going to have an extreme negative bias toward the guns, when the real problem was almost certainly shooter error. And that's how a lot of this crap gets started.


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"I have little doubt that the Preacher has been frantically searching for a rash of cracked Flues in order to prove me wrong."

Sorry William, but I have no emotional investment nor intellectual interest in cracked frame Flues, or your self-absorption and paranoia. I'm not stalking you.

I did once buy a nicely restocked with a BTFE and beautiful wood 10g Flues at a gun show for fun, only to find someone had hogged the chambers out to 3 1/2". This was long ago and before I had a wall thickness gauge, but I had read enough to know not to use the gun as it was, and didn't want to invest in custom full length 12g tubes. I sold it with full disclosure to a guy who wanted the stock. Interesting, no cracked frame and the gun was tight and on-face.

BTW: could you please address me by my name, and leave my calling and ministry out of it? Thank you.

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Originally Posted by Drew Hause
"I have little doubt that the Preacher has been frantically searching for a rash of cracked Flues in order to prove me wrong."

Sorry William, but I have no emotional investment nor intellectual interest in cracked frame Flues, or your self-absorption and paranoia. I'm not stalking you.

Preacher, I didn't make that statement based upon any paranoia or self absorption problems. I said it based upon your past history, and the many times that you have responded to my posts with a bunch of copy-and-paste links in a typical frantic attempt to make me look bad or prove me wrong. There are many examples in the archives, and you've done that right within this very thread. And your serial responses demonstrate that you do indeed have an "emotional investment" and "intellectual interest in cracked frame Flues", accompanied by your usual rude insults and false accusations. Just the sort of behavior that makes your claims to be a holy man a sad joke.

I'd think you'd at least be appreciative of finally knowing the probable cause of frame cracking in Fox Sterlingworths. I have little doubt you'll repeat Dewey Vicknair's analysis the next dozen times you post that Fox photo. I just hope you'll give him proper attribution.

I know Dave Weber gets tired of this back and forth bickering, but in all fairness, I should be permitted to respond to your dishonest attempts to hurl insults and denigrate my mental state. But then again, maybe Dave will feel you are too fragile to handle the truth, and utilize censorship to save you again.


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