doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com E.M. Reilly; History; Chronology; Serial Numbers

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*41 Reilly and Pistols

. . . . .*41a Reilly marketed revolvers: Collage Includes Colt, Smith&Wesson, Adams, Webley, Beaumont-Adams, Webley-Sykes, Tower Bulldog, Trantor...




. . . . .*41b Reilly marketed hand-guns:


. . . . .*41c J.C. Reilly pin-fire hand gun, c1856:


. . . . .*41d Reilly Trantor presentation revolver, 1860’s:


. . . . .*41e Reilly 1846? Pepperbox and Flashman and the Mountain of Light:



. . . . .*41f 1896 Vampire kit with two J.C. Reilly, 316 High Holborn pocket pistols firing silver bullets:



=========== *41 Reilly and Pistols END FOOTNOTES ===========

I see all your posting and I understand all the effort on your research I just see a lot of speculation with underlined press quoting reilly good luck with your quest I'm not trying to piss anyone off

Thanks mc, This is analysis but that is the way history is written. If you have doubts about an assertion, break it down and I'll post some more stuff, and together we will walk through the analysis of what we're looking at.

As an example start off with these:

-- Reilly built pin-fires. Are you ok with that?
. . . . .-- Was Reilly one of the first to build pin-fires in UK along with Lang and Blanch?
. . . . .-- Was there anybody else in all of UK who could have built those four early Reilly pin-fires? If so, who?

-- Do you accept the Reilly serial number dating chart? (To discuss the above pinfires you have to date them first)

-- Do you think he exhibited at 1851 Crystal Palace and 1855 Paris Universelle World's Fairs? If so, was he showing others' work and claiming it was his?

-- Do you believe he provided guns to "The Field" for the two trials in 1858 and 1859?
. . . . .-- If so do you think "The Field" would have let him submit other gunmakers' guns for the trials?
. . . . .-- Do you think the other gunmakers at the test would have allowed this?
. . . . .-- If you believe he submitted others' guns for the test, whose were they?

Just a few questions to begin to address the above doubts. This process can continue for each point made in each paragraph. But start with the above four. (This is why each chapter is being reposted, added to and footnoted. I have already been accused of "cherry picking" data).

"I just see a lot of speculation with underlined press quoting Reilly"!! I've got to admit that a statement like this...when everything is laid out step by step to read, with all the specific questions that could be asked...pretty well boggles the mind.

James Kerr & Co through the London Armoury Co had the Winchester agency for the UK.

Regards

Alan

Just be thankful he didn't buy a Purdy

Thanks Alan D., Reilly probably purchased WIN SN 10808 from Kerr and engraved and marketed it. First advertisement for Kerr as Sole Winchester agent is 28 November 1874, "The Field."

I love the glowing report on the winchester 4inch group at 100 yards and this accuracy is unsurpassed in england I love the copy editors .minute of tree stump

Is it in Tombstone where the Coroner’s records particularise a verdict of Suicide with the facts “Opened fire with a six-shooter on a man armed with a Winchester rifle 100 yards away”?

Henry Mortan Stanley, the Welsh American and the greatest African explorer (who found Dr. Livingston I presume) on Reilly and Winchester. How I Found Livingstone.

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*42 Reilly Cartridges and Ammunition
(This is not meant to be an in-depth analysis of UK ammunition in the pin-fire era but rather a cursory look at Reilly’s involvement in the cartridge business, which came to be a major revenue producer for him. As such there may be some errors in the below; there is not much information available though specialists in cartridges may have more).

For the first five years of Lefaucheaux pin-fire history in the UK, 1854-1860 the majority of the shells and shell hulls used were imported from France. As pointed out above there is a Reilly 12 gauge rifle pin-fire cartridge dated 1855 probably imported from France.*42a The French hulls of course were meant to be reloaded. During the 1858 trials a young Reilly employee was designated to do this task to assure all guns had equal charges, demonstrating Reilly’s involvement in the reloading business.*42b

The principle UK maker of shells and ammunition Eley seems to have begun offering pin-fire shells in early 1858; the first Eley ad for a breech loading cartridge is 02 January 1858 (possible for a rifle such as a Prince) and the first specifically for a pin-fire shotgun in May 1858.*42c These Eley cartridges initially received bad reviews per letters to the Field.*42d.

In a letter he wrote to “The Field” in December 1857, EM Reilly complained about hide-bound practices of the UK cartridge establishment and the inability of UK ammunition makers to manufacture pin-fire shells even when given complete examples, plans and drawings.*42e By that time Reilly was guaranteeing access to ammunition for gentlemen who bought his pin-fires.*42f

In an 1859 book by the editor of “The Field” the author “Stonehenge” pointed out that even at that late date at the very end of decade, French shells could be found in every town in UK and were clearly predominant.*42g

By 1858 it appears that Reilly, frustrated with Eley and possibly influenced by France, saw a marketing opportunity and had made the decision to go into the shotgun shell manufacturing and sales business. Reilly from the beginning of his involvement with pinfires, mentioned “cartridges” in his advertisements for breech-loaders. However, the first stand-alone mention in a Reilly advertisement of cartridge’s being sold appeared in June 1859.*42h Who made the cartridge casings for Reilly is unknown. It is possible that he imported them from France under contract with his name stamped on the base, or he may have found a local manufacturer.

Note: A drawing of a Reilly cartridge which appeared in a book published in early 1860 shows a pinfire 12 bore cartridge with only "Reilly" stamped on the case much like the 1855 12 bore cartridge pictured above.*42i The name of the company changed to E.M. Reilly & Co. circa Feb 1859.*42j. This may indicate that Reilly was filling and selling his own cartridges in 1858-early 1859.

Centripetal Machine: In 1861 he patented a new machine for crimping shells called a “centripetal device.”*42k This patent was renewed twice in 1891 and 1892.*42l

Cost of pinfire cartridges: In 1859 “Stonehenge” recorded the cost of French pin-fire cartridges, 2£ 10s per 1000 cartridges. In modern dollars that would be around $450 for 1000 cartridges, an average of about $11.25 per box of 25, $.45 per cartridge.*42m. (Cheaper than RST today).

Reilly continued to manufacture and sell his own shells for the next 40 years making the jump to marketing centerfire hulls and cartridges around 1865. This was apparently a significant stream of income for the company. Reilly shells (in centerfire format) have been found in archeological digs including an investigation of an old whaling station in New Zealand*42n and in Saskatchewan, Canada.*42o By the 1890's he was providing buyers with options on smokeless powders.*42p.

There is some question on if and when he began to use Eley as a source for his cartridge hulls; the Reilly cartridges unearthed in the archeological dig in Canada allegedly were made by Eley (no pictures to confirm this).*42q. However, in 1895 Reilly began advertising the sale of Eley cartridges in his stores for the first time, perhaps an acknowledgement that his cartridge business had succumbed to the weight of mass production.*42r.

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