November
S M T W T F S
1 2 3 4 5
6 7 8 9 10 11 12
13 14 15 16 17 18 19
20 21 22 23 24 25 26
27 28 29 30
Who's Online Now
8 members (prairie ghost, Marks_21, Parabola, Gerry Addison, LRF, 1 invisible), 57 guests, and 6 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums10
Topics36,983
Posts523,502
Members14,231
Most Online462
Aug 5th, 2016
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 3 of 4 1 2 3 4
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,023
Likes: 235
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,023
Likes: 235
Originally Posted by ed good
it would seem we should take advantage of the uk reproofing service for old guns we plan to have imported into our country...because:

- reproofing to current uk specs would expand ammunition options here?

- in a competitive market a gun carrying the most up to date proofs would be more desirable than a gun last proofed, say 80 or more years ago?

- still wondering how long it takes to have a gun reproofed and at what cost?

- and if reproofing an old gun does enhance its resale value, then would a london house reproofing be more advantageous, versus a birmingham house reproofing?

I’ll give it a shot, ed, but, you are beginning to annoy me.

-Reproofing to current U.K. specs would NOT expand ammunition options, here. ALL US commercial ammunition should be assumed to be loaded to SAAMI maximum, about 11500psi, unless it is from a boutique maker who subjects his product to testing for pressure, and puts it in writing as to what pressure that particular lot makes. Ammunition options would expand if US commercial ammunition makers produced ammunition to a certain level of proof. They don’t.Those 80 year old guns are not suited to higher pressure US loads, even if they pass proof-they were designed with lower pressure ammunition in mind. Someone gave thought to how big the bolting surfaces and hinge should be. You can run lighter loads then what the gun was proofed for, but, heavier is asking for trouble. Additionally. The wood is old. The solder holding everything together is old.

-Knowledgable potential owners in a competitive gun market frown on English guns that have been altered. They are NOT more desirable with modification. From what I have seen, Englishmen prefer the 2 1/2” version of the game gun, believing they typically are balanced better, and built lighter.

-I’ve had a single gun submitted for reproof in Birmingham. They were prompt, and I can’t remember what it cost, so, I’m guessing it wasn’t eye opening, either way. Gun arrived, on schedule with new proof marks. Still used low pressure ammunition it was designed for to begin with.

-The number of guys who buy doubles, any type, is small. The guys who buy old English doubles is a subset of that. The guys in that subset, who can positively ID new London vs Birmingham proofs won’t likely pay more for one versus the other, because, they like them unmolested, remember?

Best,
Ted

1 member likes this: SKB
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 5,719
Likes: 103
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 5,719
Likes: 103
Originally Posted by ed good
doc drew, me give it a rest? the jokers who have come on here and trashed this thread should give it a rest...

i still would like answers to my last four questions, re reproofing...

it would seem we should take advantage of the uk reproofing service for old guns we plan to have imported into our country...because:

- reproofing to current uk specs would expand ammunition options here?

Depends on what it was proofed for, don't you think?


Quote
- in a competitive market a gun carrying the most up to date proofs would be more desirable than a gun last proofed, say 80 or more years ago?

Not if the gun is still within proof (this has been stated quite a few times, but you seem to ignore that.). If it is not in proof then whether it adds value depends on why it is not in proof, don't you think?


Quote
- still wondering how long it takes to have a gun reproofed and at what cost?

Why does it matter?


Quote
- and if reproofing an old gun does enhance its resale value, then would a london house reproofing be more advantageous, versus a birmingham house reproofing?

No.

That putty between your ears is mighty thick.


_________
...never pay Dave "one more dime"
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 407
Likes: 20
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 407
Likes: 20
Originally Posted by Ted Schefelbein
ALL US commercial ammunition should be assumed to be loaded to SAAMI maximum, about 11500psi

Ted, this is correct but some (not all) US ammunition has been submitted to CIP for testing and meets CIP standards. Among the ammunition in my storage area are the following that have CIP approval marks on the boxes:

Remington 16 gauge 1 ounce 1200 fps - Munich CIP mark
Winchester Super Target 20 gauge 7/8 ounce 1200 fps - Liege CIP mark
Winchester Super Target 12 gauge 1 ounce 1180 fps - Birmingham and London CIP marks
Winchester Super Target 12 gauge 1 1/8 ounce 1200 fps - Liege CIP mark

Fiocchi 16 gauge and 28 gauge do not have CIP marks on the boxes. These are assembled in the USA of foreign components.

The USA made Herters 12 gauge 1 ounce 1180 fps do not have CIP marks on the boxes but are believed to be the same as the Super Target 1 ounce 1180 fps cartridges

Obviously all of the European cartridges we have (Monarch, Challenger, RC, Italian made Herter's, etc.) are CIP approved.

For the "modern" guns my wife and I shoot (my 3 Beretta O/U's, my 2 AyA No 2's, our 2 Ugartechea SxS's and her Grulla SLE) we use any standard for gauge US or foreign cartridge - 12 gauge = 1 1/8 at 1200 fps, 16 gauge = 1 ounce at 1200 fps, 20 gauge = 7/8 ounce at 1200/1210 fps and 28 gauge = 3/4 ounce at 1200 fps. I'm comfortable that these are safe and will not damage the guns even with a significant amount of shooting. I stay away from heavy US loadings as much for my shoulder as my gun; my wife and I do not like heavy recoil.

I have 2 damascus barreled guns, a Joseph Lang completed in 1866 and rebarreled by James Woodward about 1872 and a Parker built in 1891. In these two guns I only shoot CIP 2 1/2 inch cartridges, RST 2 1/2 inch or 2 1/2 inch reloads (tested by Tom Armbrust) loaded to equivalent pressures.

2 members like this: mc, Stanton Hillis
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 8,993
Likes: 63
ed good Offline OP
Sidelock
*
OP Offline
Sidelock
*

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 8,993
Likes: 63
gee ted, sorry to annoy you...

thanks for the intelligent, pertinent post...

rewatchin "bull durham"...

will get back to youse...


providing doublegon happiness via 90 30 guide lines...oh, an don fur git bout dave...
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,023
Likes: 235
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,023
Likes: 235
I have a few flats of Federal Gold Metals that are pretty recent, that have the CIP emblem on the bottom of the box, with an enigmatic “M” next to it. But, last years Gold Metals, and some recent Top Guns do not have the emblem. Seems a bit hit or miss, to me. I wouldn’t actually be in a hurry to run the 2 3/4” Federal paper loads in a 2 1/2” English gun, either. A poke here and there at a grouse or pheasant, maybe, but, not 100 rounds on a Sunday afternoon at the club.

I like really light loads in light guns, same reason as you.

Best,
Ted

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 8,993
Likes: 63
ed good Offline OP
Sidelock
*
OP Offline
Sidelock
*

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 8,993
Likes: 63
thank you lord fur rst..


providing doublegon happiness via 90 30 guide lines...oh, an don fur git bout dave...
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,042
Likes: 5
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,042
Likes: 5
Maybe of interest here. There is a restaurant in Jackson, WY, the Gunbarrel. Great steakhouse in a Western motif. On most of the columns in the dining room, there are mounted crossed a pair of double barrels. I looked closely at several when I was there and was surprised to see names like Purdey, Churchill and H&H. I asked the manager about them but he had no clue. Out of proof barrels? The elk is great.

Take a look: https://jackson.gunbarrel.com/

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 8,993
Likes: 63
ed good Offline OP
Sidelock
*
OP Offline
Sidelock
*

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 8,993
Likes: 63
interesting... reasons to go there...had bbq elk ribs recently...yum, yum...

bet the owner shoots an 1100?

Last edited by ed good; 03/28/22 09:59 PM.

providing doublegon happiness via 90 30 guide lines...oh, an don fur git bout dave...
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 407
Likes: 20
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 407
Likes: 20
Originally Posted by Ted Schefelbein
I wouldn’t actually be in a hurry to run the 2 3/4” Federal paper loads in a 2 1/2” English gun, either.

I like really light loads in light guns, same reason as you.

Best,
Ted

Ted, All of the US (and European) cartridges that I have with the CIP mark are 2 3/4" and intended for 2 3/4" chambered guns so I will not shoot them in my 2 1/2" inch guns. CIP 2 1/2" (65mm & 67mm) cartridges are are proofed specifically for 2 1/2"chambered guns.

All of my guns are relatively light and light loads are much more pleasant to shoot.

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,023
Likes: 235
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,023
Likes: 235
Originally Posted by FlyChamps
Originally Posted by Ted Schefelbein
I wouldn’t actually be in a hurry to run the 2 3/4” Federal paper loads in a 2 1/2” English gun, either.

I like really light loads in light guns, same reason as you.

Best,
Ted

Ted, All of the US (and European) cartridges that I have with the CIP mark are 2 3/4" and intended for 2 3/4" chambered guns so I will not shoot them in my 2 1/2" inch guns. CIP 2 1/2" (65mm & 67mm) cartridges are are proofed specifically for 2 1/2"chambered guns.

All of my guns are relatively light and light loads are much more pleasant to shoot.

I should clarify. There are no English short chambered guns here, old, or, otherwise. There have been, in the past.The lone 2 1/2” gun is a very old Darne. Old enough to have been proofed with powder S or J, because they were optional at that time, but, it was proofed with powder T. The barrel walls, 9” from the breech, are just over .050” wall. It is a 12, with beautiful, unaltered bores. Pits are a thing in old European guns. Not this one.

It is not an especially lightweight Darne. I will sneak an occasional 2 3/4” round in that gun, typically a 1 Oz or less at less than 1200 FPS. NOT a Pheasants Forever 1 1/4 Oz loads of #5s at 1300fps. The increase in pressure, using rational loads 2 3/4” long, in a short 2 1/2” chamber, is negligible. I wouldn’t do it in a gun that I didn’t feel was up to snuff, but, I wouldn’t own a gun like that.

I have no doubt that the Darne is up to it, and that it will be in use long after I am not.

Best,
Ted

Last edited by Ted Schefelbein; 03/29/22 06:31 AM.
Page 3 of 4 1 2 3 4

Link Copied to Clipboard

doublegunshop.com home | Welcome | Sponsors & Advertisers | DoubleGun Rack | Doublegun Book Rack

Order or request info | Other Useful Information

Updated every minute of everyday!


Copyright (c) 1993 - 2022 doublegunshop.com. All rights reserved. doublegunshop.com - Bloomfield, NY 14469. USA These materials are provided by doublegunshop.com as a service to its customers and may be used for informational purposes only. doublegunshop.com assumes no responsibility for errors or omissions in these materials. THESE MATERIALS ARE PROVIDED "AS IS" WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EITHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANT-ABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, OR NON-INFRINGEMENT. doublegunshop.com further does not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the information, text, graphics, links or other items contained within these materials. doublegunshop.com shall not be liable for any special, indirect, incidental, or consequential damages, including without limitation, lost revenues or lost profits, which may result from the use of these materials. doublegunshop.com may make changes to these materials, or to the products described therein, at any time without notice. doublegunshop.com makes no commitment to update the information contained herein. This is a public un-moderated forum participate at your own risk.

Note: The posting of Copyrighted material on this forum is prohibited without prior written consent of the Copyright holder. For specifics on Copyright Law and restrictions refer to: http://www.copyright.gov/laws/ - doublegunshop.com will not monitor nor will they be held liable for copyright violations presented on the BBS which is an open and un-moderated public forum.

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
(Release build 20201027)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 7.0.33-0+deb9u11+hw1 Page Time: 0.114s Queries: 37 (0.078s) Memory: 0.8639 MB (Peak: 1.8990 MB) Data Comp: Off Server Time: 2022-11-30 11:38:07 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS