doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Syracuse Arms Co single trigger?

I picked up this A grade ejector Syracuse Arms CO gun at auction. It seems to have an unmodified triggerplate with one centered slot for a trigger. I figured somebody converted it to single trigger but now I am wondering if it wasnt a factory prototype to try and develop a SST. The selector is the knurled piece in front of the trigger. It slides front to rear to select the first barrel(The auctioneer thought it must rotate to select but that it was stuck , another reason not to force anything on a double gun). The This gun has no saftey and you can see where a rectangle plug was inserted into the slot for the saftey, much like the Remington 1894 Pigeon guns pictured in Semmers book. It can be seen on the bottom of the top tang but is very hard to make out looking from the top. I can see no filled slots in the triggerplate top or bottom so I think it was intended to be a ST gun from the start.

This gun also has very nice engraving and the top lever contour is awesome. The groove from between the breech balls extends back into the top lever on these early SAC guns but this one extends back into the screw head. Look at that detail. Also the front screw in the triggerplate is bigger on this gun than the other SAC guns I have and the screw heads have really nice engraving.

The treatment of the breechballs is nice and different as well. The "rib" that starts on the bottom and goes up to the standing breech is cool.

Does anybody have any info about SAC trying to develop a ST? Anybody seen a ST mechanism like this?
Ross

I have no answers but have to say your photos do justice to the engraving detail.

jack

Reb87,
The trigger doesn't look anything like my single trigger Syracuse...If I remember correctly, the designer of the trigger that I have is Franz Jaeger, but it doesn't look al all like the Jaeger/Bittner aftermarket trigger...if you leave these pictures posted, I'll look into it in the next couple of days...perhaps I'll be able tell you who designed the trigger based on the patent record...Yours and mine are the only two I've seen...not counting the clearly aftermarket triggers by Worrest and Miller...

Both of the A grades shown are in the 5000 serial number range. I wonder why the extra engraving on the SST gun?

Have you seen a SAC gun without safety? Does your gun have a triggerplate like mine?

My gun appears to have been a two barrel set, the forend and barrel are marked with a "1". The barrel is 28 inches long with .020 and .035 restrictions. Why are there so many original two barrel guns sets that are missing one of the sets?
Ross

Calling Mr. Archer!! Calling Mr. Archer!!

The trigger appears to be at least pre 1910 or so, by the lack of any inertia blocking device*...am I correct that there is no floating weight of any sort?
Also, the color changes that indicate that the sear levers were heated before being bent, is not an indicator of an aftermarket or factory trigger. It only means that double trigger sears were modified to meet ther single trigger's bearing surfaces, as with every Western/Lefever Nitro single trigger. I say this in advance to keep the discussion on track. Otherwise it won't be long until a devil's advocate comes along and sites those colors as evidence that it's an aftermarket trigger...when in fact it both factory and aftermarket can show evidence of sear lever modifications.

* not to be confused with an inertia shifting device, this gun appears to be neither...

It has neither an inertia blocking device or a inertia shifter. It has kind of a strange feeler shifter that rides against the right hammer. I havent had time to figure out exactly how if functions yet though.
Ross

I don't know if I can add much of anything to this discussion Researcher; but, at your invitation, I'll add my opinion for whatever it may be worth. First of all, I noted this gun in the auction and came very close to jumping in the bidding (I really liked the nice beads around the breech balls, something not common to SAC guns); I didn't of course, and am glad to know that Reb, a SAC fancier, is now the proud owner. In my SAC research, I found absolutely nothing to indicate the Syracuse Arms Company was working on a single trigger design. This doesn't mean old Frank Hollenbeck or George Horne weren't working on a ST design; but we do know there are no ST patents issued assigned to the Syracuse Arms Company. Robert Chambers sent me some photos of his late Grade O gun with a single trigger (a Jaeger patent) that I believe could have been a SAC single trigger test gun due to the fact that Jaeger (a German inventor) was in the US when this gun was produced. As to the subject gun, the trigger design looks just like a photo of an early SAC gun with a single trigger that Buck Hamlin shared with me some years ago. He didn't think the trigger was factory work; but could not be sure. My personal opinion, given that the stock is a replacement, is that the trigger is aftermarket and the gun restocked as part of the trigger conversion project (although I cannot be certain either, and have no idea who did the work).
As to other questions raised, I have never recorded a SAC "live bird gun". I have not seen another SAC gun with a trigger plate screw as large as seen in this example; I suspect whoever fitted the single trigger wanted a more solid anchor point than the original smaller screw provided. As to engraving, it is not uncommon ot find early examples of A Grade SAC guns with exceptional engraving, and also different engraving patterns (no game scenes, but unusual flourishes of scroll and in odd locations). This is the only A Grade gun I have seen with raised ridges behind the breech balls. Whoever did the fitting and engraving repair did excellent work, the engraving modifications on the top strap and trigger plate appearing to be identical to the patterns on the balance of the frame; but SAC used the Glahn family for their engraving work and those guys could have engraved the modified parts long after SAC was out of business. Again, I don't have the answers but this is a very intriguing gun; I hope its history can be determined, and I'm glad it has found a great home!

It wasn't uncommon, as it isn't today, for an inventor to patent his or her idea before selling it to someone else. Unless the employee develops the patent on company time, that's usually the case, so should that de a registered design trigger, the fact that it wasn't assigned to SAC from the beginning will be less relevant than IF that patent was applied for before the end of SAC production. Let's not forget where and when we are discussing, Syracuse NY. Syracuse was perhaps the most important city in the US it terms of SxS production and evolution. Many makers and inventors were not only within the city limits but were located in the surrounding region...Ilion, Fulton, Rome...with guys like Alexander Brown, Hollenbeck, Horne, Lewis, Thorneley, and Dan Lefever kicking around...not to mention Hurst, Roy, Giddings, Charles Green, Charles Lefever and Rosenburg ...and surely these guys talked about the successes and foibles of their Syracuse predesessors Andrew Whitmore, Fay, H A Castle, Louis Diss, and L L Hepburn...and I'm not naming all of them, just a few important minds in the region...and Ithaca was just a barge hop away..

Reb says that there appears to be no filler strips in the trigger strap. Could you please double check it with magnification.

Well it has rained here and harvest is off for a while. Ill try to strip the trigger plate today and clean it up to look for fillers.

I think Tom is suggesting that the triggerplate was made by a SST convertof(outside of SAC) and engraved by the same hand that was engraving the SAC guns. I dont think that is plausible because of the rather crude modification of the internals, it looks to me like a SAC man was modifying parts to see if he could come up with a workable single trigger design and he asked for a triggerplate for this gun with no trigger slots cut. Based on the modified internal parts I cant fathom that somebody would make a new trigger plate until he came up with "new made" parts for the ST conversion(it would me much easier to modify the original plate) The trigger plate has a number under part of the new mechanism, I cant make it out with the parts in the way but Ill take the stuff off and see what it says.

Robert,
Does your gun have a modified triggerplate or one with only one slot? I would sure think that SAC would have wanted to offer a SST to go along with their higher grade guns so it seems plausible that they would have been fooling with something SST related. If only we could go back in time to Syracuse, the mecca of so many desirable American guns and talk to the players you listed above.

Tom, you have seen as many of these guns as anybody and I really appreciate your input. Thanks for your work and time.

ps Will there be an article forthcomming on that very special Syracuse gun soon?