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Originally Posted by Nudge
Let me phrase the pertinent question this way: If I were to own a 20 ga Flues, and only shoot loads of a pressure that is in spec for a gun of that age...should I be legitimately, rationally concerned, that the frame may fail?

NDG

Don't take my word for it... or anyone else's word either. Look it up. Do some Google searches for things like "Ithaca Flues cracked frame" etc.

That's what I did, and I really expected to find a bunch, considering how often it has been said here that these guns are prone to cracking... especially in the 20 gauge guns. What I learned was that this issue is completely overblown. There are a relative handful, considering the large number produced. When you do some digging, you find that the vast majority that cracked at the juncture of the standing breech and water table had been subject to forces far above what they were intended to handle. You will find some references to a guy named Greg Tag, who was supposedly collecting data on cracked Flues... But you won't find any actual numbers or details about cracked Flues guns he encountered. You will find statements from many guys who have heard all of the horror stories, but then they tell you that all of their Flues guns are alive and well.

You will learn that a few pictures of a few damaged guns that are repeatly posted over and over on various gun forums have created a bad reputation that is just not justified by facts or hard numbers. If a bunch of shooters load Model 94 Winchester rifles with high pressure magnum level loads, and their frames crack or stretch, should we believe the guns are poorly designed??? Of course not. It's just a silly overreaction to a virtually nonexistent problem. Some guys would be better off taking up knitting. But those knitting needles are pretty scary too.


A true sign of mental illness is any gun owner who would vote for an Anti-Gunner like Joe Biden.

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Nudge,
I have pictures of cracked Flues frames. And also several other SxS makes, including a STERLINGWORTH.
I have pictures of blown damascus barrels, and also blown modern steel barrels.
The Flues is a sound design. Hard to know if those broken ones got fed a proper diet or were force fed 3" goose loads until they said uncle.
If you are shooting clays or chasing upland birds, a Flues is a fine choice.

John

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a botched frame rehardening job combined with heavy loads could result in a cracked frame...

Last edited by ed good; 04/02/22 07:58 AM.

keep it simple and keep it safe...
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Bro. Nudge: A sample of 5 certainly does not establish statistical significance, but AFAIK this is the only analysis of U.S. maker’s frames anyone has done

c. 1890 Hunter Arms Fulton “Transition” L.C. Smith Hammerless and 1909 L.C. Smith No. 00 were both non-standard but similar to Bessemer resulphurized (very high sulphur) AISI 1109 low (.09% & .12%) carbon steel.
Plans & Specifications of the L.C. Smith Shotgun by William S. Brophy contains an undated but likely post-1913 Materials Specification chart indicating “AISI 1020 Carbon Steel” for the frame.

c. 1900 Remington Hammerless Model of 1900 was Bessemer rephosphorized resulphurized AISI 1211 low alloy low (.08%) carbon Steel

c. 1892 New Ithaca (Hammer) Gun was AISI 1015 carbon steel

c. 1927 Crescent Empire No. 60 was non-standard AISI 1015 carbon steel with low concentrations of nickel (.05%) and chromium (.08%)

c. 1929 Fox Sterlingworth was non-standard AISI 1020 with low concentrations of nickel (.07%) and chromium (.08%)

Possibly someone could check Walt's book and see if the Flues era frame composition is specified.

I don't know if frames were heat treated prior to the color case hardening process, or if that was considered as heat treatment. If improperly done, heat treatment can decrease ductility and increase brittleness of low alloy steel.

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Color case hardening is a hardening process so the receiver wouldn't have been hardened before the coloring process.

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Lots of information regarding case coloring with help from Mike Hunter and SDH
https://doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=572094

Decent overview of both color case and heat treating
https://uplandguncompany.com/color-case-hardening-and-heat-treating/

Yes, color case (surface) hardening is a form of heat treating, but not necessarily heat treating to increase strength of the forged action (as in rifle receivers).

I looked at several sources with descriptions of the Hunter Arms factory, all of which mentioned "large ovens for case hardening, bluing and annealing".

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post factory color case hardening is a process where creating case colors is a goal...if a high heat process is utilized, those colors can be a by product of the rehardening process...sometimes a cracked frame can also be a by product of a reheat treating process...and then there are the efforts to straighten warped re heat treated frames, which may also result in cracked frames...also, if a reharden frame is not correctly tempered, it could be as brittle as glass, and may crack under the stress of shooting, especially with mag loads...


keep it simple and keep it safe...
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Have been looking but all I've found is 2 "guys on the internet" who stated that shotgun frames are not heat treated (understanding again that color case coloring is a form of heat treatment).
Hopefully a gunsmith will provide a definitive statement and thanks.

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the best explanation i have found, is included in tony tredwell's fine book...

ttps://www.lulu.com/shop/tony-treadwell/vintage-english-shotguns-and-their-restoration/hardcover/product-20115603.html?page=1&pageSize=4


keep it simple and keep it safe...
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and then larry potterfield's video is helpful,as well...


Last edited by ed good; 04/02/22 07:51 PM.

keep it simple and keep it safe...
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