doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion Classic & Custom Single Barreled Sporting Rifles @ doublegunshop.com 1939 M70 Std. Grade .375H&H Mag

Found this baby at. in small town gunshop- consigned and owner asking $2500. SN 44xxx- pre-war safety conversion by Williams, clover leaf shape tang, 25" barrel with a unknown mfg. flash suppressor-recoil device-- same od on this gizmo as on the heavy walled barrel, front sight rampy forged with barrel-NOT silver soldered in place- Has a G&H d etachable side mount, receiver was D&T for the 3 location machine screws- rear receiver rng intact- NOT drilled and tapped, 2 lever style lock-release on the G&H mount. Leupold 3X9 VX-111== 50mm optic lense, dull black finish and in Leupold rings, rear sight is a Williams, not original-- blade removed to allow scope bell to clear-original solid red pad wood and metal 90% plus, bore and chamber are mint-- owner is asking $2500- plus 6% tax to dealer doing the consignment-- but dealer tells me he has a large (?) amount of ammo for this M70- amount and make of that is unknown to me as of right now, but would make a good investment (the ammo)-- before I start shelling out some serious Benjamins, ??? for the big bore cognoscenti that travel this website.

In my 1954 ed. of the Stoeger catalog, this std. grade M70 retailed for $120.00 The G&H side mount retailed for aprox. $30.00- $45.00 if installed by G&H in NYC. probably no way to know if this M70 had the side mount by G&H or another gunsmith- machine screw heads are "un-boogered" as are all the other visible screw heads on this M70.. Ernest Hemingway's G&H custom 1903 converted Sporter in std. 30-06 also had that mounting system for the 1930's era German Zeiss Zeikolon scope, which Don Ernesto promptly dismounted, but left he scope mount on the rifle sans scope

If by chance I should end up with this M70 for my collection (pre-War 11 are my "favorites") I doubt if I will ever use it for MI hunting, possibly on feral pigs, but a bit of "overkill" on Mich whitetailed deer-- elk, possibly on elk. The gunshop owner told me that the consignor said he killed a leopard in Africa with this "Steinway" rifle-- he, no doubt, like yours truly, believes 100% in the mantra espoused by the late Robert Chester Ruark: "Use Enough Gun"-- Amen..RWTF

If you can see the slots in the screws that attach the G & H sidemount base to the receiver it was most likely not installed by G & H.

G & H normally screwed & pinned the base to the receiver & then dressed the screw heads & pins down flush with the base & reblued so that you had a very neat installation & could only see the screws & pins if you looked at the base from the correct angle & in very good light.

If installed properly it would not matter much to me who did the installation of the G & H sidemount but the muzzle brake would be a big turnoff unless it could be removed & the bbl neatly re crowned & I would also want to do something re. the Williams rear sight that (to me)
always look "cheap & out of place" on a nice rifle.

Never heard of a William s safety conversion on any Mod 70. Does anyone have a picture of one? Tilden was the preferred alteration.

Never heard of a William s safety conversion on any Mod 70. Does anyone have a picture of one? Tilden was the preferred alteration.

Most people convert there safe to winchester type of safe

Ooops- 2 errors in my report- I stated 1939-- my schwing pocket handbook on Winchesters shows the sn as 1942- probably first year of wartime limited production of M70's in all the calibers and configurations-- The front sight and forged in barrel base are original- the rear sight is marked Williams--the safety conversion is not marked- like Buehler on my 1903-A3 sporter conversion, done by McCord of Ionai 1974-- 30-06 so I guessed at Williams, are Tilden conversions marked?? The only M54 I own, at present, is a 1935 SG in .270Win--it has the conversion, from the "paddle-wing Mauser style" safety to the post WW2 M70 style, gunsmith who did this is unknown to me.. RWTF

The only Tilden I have is not marked except for 'fire' which would be forward position as any 3 position safety. I have never seen a Buehler style safety on a mod 70. Not even sure how that would work as it rotates vertically up and down. I do know it is possible to fit certain year mod 70 bolt shrouds to 1903 Springfields. It was one way to obtain a 3 position safety likely before people like Ed Lapour started making them. So the question that comes to mind can a Springfield bolt shroud be fit to a mod 70? Only conversion for a pre war is a Tilden AFAIK. Could be a one off gunsmith fabrication. A picture would help.

There is a picture of a Tilden safety on page 135 in the Roger Rule book

Thanks for the info re: safety. I cannot get you pictures, as I have not yet purchased the gun-- the safety has "ridged surface" and is stamped "FIRE" with an arrow pointed clockwise (forward, towards the muzzle. I also need to research how the short vented muzzle brake was attached-- barrel is uncut at 25". nor is the front ramp touched by this installation. Switching horses midstream to Model 12's (Winchesters I treasure as much as Model 70's) Winchester offered factory installation of muzzle "gadgets" such as Poly-Chokes and Cutts' Comps (barf) so it follows on that they might have offered those as a factory installed device.

The next time I am in that area-probably for turkey hunting in May- I'll stop in and take a camera and try to get some detailed fotos for you. I know have a "Jitterbug" pad thingy, will try to learn how to take fotos and e-mail them, but I want to put some time between visits- the tag says $2500-- OBO-- and patience is a solid part of my "game plan" on this "heavy hitter" M70.RWTF

Indeed there is--Roger Rule is a writer who knows his subject material and how to present it-as does mio amigo Silvio Calabi--RWTF

Foxy, how about some pictures of this great .375? I am not familiar with the safeties and sights you mention. My pre-war Super Grade .375 is equipped with a common Lyman 48 and no provision for scope.

Would love to oblige, but perhaps in my first posts about this "Older Jewel" 1942 aprox. yom-- I have not yet acquired it. Need to "rest" my pocketbook and "wait this out- so the dealer still has it on consignment-- My money says he'll hold it for a while at his askng price- consignment sale, and from a marketing standpoint, he's not IMO- in a prime area in Central MI for a heavy caliber like the great .375H&H-- most of his clientele are in the 30-06, .270Win, .308 and especially 30-30 calibers. Are you and your wife Linda going to Deep Dixie for the "Southern" by chance?? RWTF

Yes.

I think the pre war M70 .375 H & H in discussion is listed on GI #101899119. If so, it is a pre war .375 & with a nicer piece of wood than most post war guns (as is typical for pre war guns) but it has plenty of issues.

The pictures aren't great but in the close up of the right side of the receiver you can see plugged holes in the right rear side of the receiver just below the bridge where it looks like someone had mounted peep sight on the opposite side from what would be correct. This, plus what appears to be pitting under the reblue, Williams rear sight base replacing the original Winchester base, muzzle brake & G & H side mount installed with just the 3 screws & not using the taper pins makes me think Bubba has been at this rifle.

It is a Tilden safety & that was a common addition on pre war M70 rifles when someone wanted to mount a scope & have easy access to the safety.

you are, indeed, correct.this 1942 M70 std grade in .37h H&H has a un-named muzzle brake attached to the uncut barrel- factory std. in that era for that cal. was 25" long, and that's what this M70 has- alo, the rear sight was removed and replaced by a Williams, and the receiver side was d&t for the Griffin & Howe side detachable scope mount, 1" rings and a newer era (dull finish) Leupold Vari-X 11 3X9 scope.- The owner, a gent with "deep pockets" apparently, is asking $2500.00 for his take, OBO- which spells, to my mind, he is cognizant of the "set-back" in final purchase price with the muzzle device. RWTF

Why does the price tag in the pic say $2500 but the listing is $2999? Room to negotiate I take it. LOL

Never noticed that- nice eye- the tag actually says $2500 OBO-- and if you buy it here in MI, John, my friend the shop owner who has this on consignment, will have to add 6% MI sales tax, and run the "Stevie Nicks" check--even if you have, as I do, a valid CPL-- our current Gov. changed that ruling right after she took office-

I am hoping to get this M70, but not at $2500 due to the issues- the main one being the muzzle gadget--that addition, to my way of thinking, is a "deal breaker:- also, if there were a dated work order from G&H showing this M70 as have being in their shop for the installation of their side mount detachable scope mount, maybe yes- but that doesn't exist apparently. Stay tuned, I'll keep you posted.. RWTF

What are those extra holes/plugs in the right side of the rear receiver ring? As badly as that gun was buffed and blued, all the extra holes in it, the muzzle brake, etc. it is most certainly just a shooter.

I agree 100%== and with the ammo retailing at Midwest at $100 a box, most of John's local customers will most likely not buy it for deer hunting. I am going to offer him half of the 2500 tag price Out The Door, mainly because: It has a Leupold Vari-X 111 scope in the mount-- but your observations are "spot on"-- I doubt if John has been in the "gun game" long enough to spot the "flaws" this M70 wears-nor does the consignor--they see a pre-64 Model 70 and think "Big $$$-- well, maybe yes, maybe no--RWTF

Yes it is- looked it over again today, when in the Remus area helping my friend cut and split more firewood for next year-- The muzzle brake does NOT have any name stamped on it- like Cutts or Lyman- but the barrel was threaded at the muzzle for this gizmo-- I'm looking at $2K for the whole package, including the Leupold Vari-X 3 scope--will know if my offer "flies" before the end of May. RWTF

Thanks-looked at it again this past Sat--I'm close to making an offer, part of which encompasses how much and what amount, make and grain wt. of ammo is included in the settled price (plus 6% tax)--Any idea how man companies back n that era (G&H side mount) made and installed muzzle breaks for large cal. rifles? I went back to some older Stoeger's catalogues in my library--ads for the Poly Chokes and Cutts comps for scatterguns galore, nada on rifle muzzle gadgets- this baby, blued steel, is threaded onto male threads machined on the muzzle, just ahead of the front sight ramp. Even a WAG would be appreciated. RWTF

Take your time don't rush into it mabey it will be a real collectors item once you decide

In the 1950's, BSA made a Muzzle Brake available on their CF bolt action rifles they mfg'd called the BESA.
As I recall, the brake was machined right into the bbl itself and not an add-on feature.
The front sight ramp was in place right on top of where the slots were cut out at the sides of the bbl.

No Markings that I know of to tell you that you had a special BESA on your rifle,,you just had to know that.

They were extremely loud in use,,muzzle brakes can be that way. But so much so that BSA offered a metal sleeve device that slipped down over the muzzle and down as far as to cover the ports.
It was open along the top to pass by the front sight ramp.
A lug on either side projected upwards just far enough to allow a small screw to pass and clamp the sleeve in place.

Maybe a former BESA owner disliked the devise so much that they had it cut from the bbl. The front sight ramp moved back and bbl recrowned.
Never to throw anything away, a gunsmith kept it and later found use for it with another customer that delighted in reducing the recoil of his M70.
Some internal threads into the cut off BESA and matching male threads on the M70.....

Well that's my story book tale.,


As far as other Muzzle Brakes,,Herters sold one in the 50's and 60's to be gunsmith installed on your rifle.
Needed your guns bbl to be threaded.
The brake had a single slanted vent on the top of the brake IIRC. Maybe they made other styles too.

Added,,,
Here's a pic of a Herters muzzle brake,,it has 2 vents on top,,not the one I had remembered.
https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/herters-recoil-eliminator-muzzle-137703612

Thanks, mucho, fellas, for the nice and most informative replies re: Added muzzle brake to the 1942 era M70 STD grade .375H&H I am looking to purchase soon-- By process of elimination, none of the "possibles" metnioned are "quite right"-- I did get some fotos on the new "Jitterbug" I-pad thingy--If I can get them posted here, that might help. There are/is NO: (1) set screw(s) it threads on the machined muzzle, and it was Not cut down from 25 inch factory length- nor was the front sight ramp changed from its position.

I have to say "Gracias" to Dave Weber for having the variety of forums available to us, to trade information, as well as having double guns for sale or trade. There is, indeed, a wealth of information out there in the free world, and this is the "numero uno" place to share it. RWTF

The Cutts Compensator for rifles was advertised as a "30 caliber" device. I assume it can be used for a .375, but don't know for sure. I assume it was installed over the muzzle after drilling it to the proper size, then soldered. The Cutts would be the only proper muzzle brake for the period of your gun. I don't have a rifle that is screwed up enough to try to install my Cutts, but some day I might find one. It would be neat on a Springfield sporter with a cut barrel.

Words of wisdom, indeed. RWTF

There is a good article on the Cutts Compensator for rifles in a 1937 American Rifleman. I have it laid out, but haven't read it. My Cutts was a $5.00 item on a table at the Chantilly, VA gun show.

I can believe that-- Hard to give a Cutts or the shotgun tube away today-must be a niche market. I will say that my exam of this older M70 showed to be a excellent job of machining the threaded muzzle, no interruption to the front sight base at all- wonder if shooting it with the muzzle removed would affect the accuracy older M70's with the lead lapped barrel bores were known for. RWTF

Nice to be a "packrat"--I found my 1954 Stoeger's and on page 132-- behold- a Sha-Cul and also a Johnson Muzzle Brake for Rifles are listed- neither seems to be anywhere the one installed on the pre-War M70 .375 I am looking over. Alas. And Mein Frau tells me the "Jitterbug" pad thingy she gave me recently does not connect to the Internet, so I am unable to send you the photos of this M70 you asked for. RWTF

IIRC-- humm- If I Recall Correctly?? Just a swag here- am I correct, Sir?? RWTF

Thanks for all the great input- this coming week-end, I'll find out if my offer of $1900 will be accepted by the consignor on the pre-War M70 std grade in .375H&H.. If I am lucky and get it at that price, plus 6% MI sales tax., I'll use it later on with a few feral pig hunts. There is an un-identified amount of handloaded ammo that comes with it, plus leather sling and QD'd, Bauer sheepskin lined case, and the newer Leupold Vari-X111 3X9 scope. By any chance, do any of you gents live in a area infested with wild pigs and hunt them with a "medium caliber" rifle? If so, what load(s) would you suggest for the H&H .375 Magnum cal.?? RWTF

I've hunted pigs with the .375H&H. I would suggest anything that flies down the bore will do. I've mostly used 270gr. bullets over a book charge of 4064. Everything shot so far had done the "4-legged surrender".

It sounds like a good cast bullet opportunity to me (250-325gr @ 1450-1600 fps seems about right).
Mike

For the 270 gr bullets, 4064 is excellent. I have a couple of rifles with the G&H sidemount and Lyman or Leupold Alaskan.
With a Lyman 48, a slight head movement lines that sight up. It was popular in the early 50s-ahead of its time. My 1951 M-70 375
is ready for a return to Alaska. Have homestead land in the interior.

But for trail walking or fishing, a pre-war Model 71 in 450 Alaskan is the only way to go. Big bears require fast repeat shots.
That's why the 86/71s make their last stand in Canada/Alaska.

Hope you get that Model 70.

Thanks, Mr. A.H. Fox XE --not too shabby a choice in a high grade American Boxlock gun on your part--Highest grade Fox double ever in my hands was a 12 bore CE, and I was "smitten". No, sorry to say, I lost out on the bidding for this older M70-and IMHO, the pre-WW2 M70's (and other Winchester firearms as well) are the "best of the best" ever made. I stopped my bid at an even 2K-mainly due to the threaded muzzle break device--it went for $2500 and sales tax. C'est La Vie. But I do agree with you 100% on your choice of a "stopper" rifle for Alaskan Big Bears (are there any small Alaskan Bears?--I have a 1940 era M71, a gift from a childhood neighbor who hunted in Alaska and Alberta--I know the .348 somewhat, but am not familiar with the 450 Alaskan Cal.-- I'd probably opt for a Mauser styled BA in .416 Rigby- express sights--"use enough gun"!! words of wisdom indeed. RWTF

Thanks, Mr. A.H. Fox XE --not too shabby a choice in a high grade American Boxlock gun on your part-- RWTF

Foxy, there were a half dozen guys selling .375 ammo at our Father's Day swap meet, all of them with stories about their fathers or fathers in law owning .375 rifles. They are out there. I own two and I'm not a rifle guy. I bought some ammo even though I own more than I will ever shoot. I would hold out for one with a Griffin and Howe side mount. My London Rigby has a side mount from the original Rigby order that looks like a G&H but with no markings. I think Rigby made it from scratch. My first year Model 70 straight taper Super Grade is an iron sight gun with a Lyman 48, no extra holes.

Nice indeed- By first year, do you perhaps mean 1937? And in a Super Grade.. They don't get any better than that, condition of course, being the main factor. The few boxes of Norma that were sold with the .375H&H I did not obtain went to an even C Note/20 rds. Guess I'll be dumping the feral pigs with my 30-06- a M70 my Dad bought new in 1939-not too shabby, I just thought it would be nice to bring a touch of Africa to a MI farmland hunt. A fella can dream, can't he now? RWTF

It is nice to see the appreciation of quality firearms here. The reason that the 1886/Model 71 are still popular in Alaska and Canada
is the frequency of bear encounters. That means black, brown Kodiak, and interior or Toklat grizzlies.

One never knows around which corner Mr. Grizzly will show up unexpectedly, and he may have just
been down to the pub and was involved in a fight over a shapely gal. Bear spray sounds nice but a pre-war 450 Alaskan with 400 gr FP bullets sounds better.
And bears can come from the same direction as the wind...

I am looking for a set of 7/8 in rings for a G&H sidemount-have a 2 in set for a trade. Looking for the rings with 2 screws to mount a Lyman or Leupold Alaskan.

I have a M71 Deluxe made in 1939- I used it once on MI whitetail- about 20 years ago. I refuse to get it scoped, Winchester LA rifles were never designed to wear scopes-- Looks like the .375H&H is still "open" to me, if I decide to pony up the $2500. If it didn't have that $#(*&&^^ muzzle break threaded on, I might- but I am holding firm at my $1900 offer-- so, we shall see- guess I'll have to whack a few hogs with the 300 grainers I have for my .348Win- a real stopper- blew the lungs completely out of the 6 point I took with it, years ago. RWTF

Foxy, it is taking a while for you to bite the .375 bullet. Hey, where are you going to find a prewar .375 with a Griffin and Howe mount? I paid a ridiculous price for my John Oberlies stocked .375, but I have never been sorry I did it. My Oberlies collection includes the first year 71, which makes a great pair if I ever go to Alaska.

You are correct, Murph. I have my M71 (thanks, Uncle Louis) but my chances for a trip to Alaska are possibly about the same as winning the next Power-Ball biggie. I have some good area farms that have wild boar problems, just thought, as the rifle comes with 3 full boxes of ammo, or so I have been told, so I may just have to "pony up"- it does have a never Leupold Vari-XIII 3x9 50mm scope in the G&H mounts (the Steinway of scope mounts for their time, and yet today, I will grant you that. I had a contact for Alaska, old Marine Corps contact- he used to write for the now defunct GSJ- but he died from cancer- what John Wayne called "The Big C'' life can be unfair at times. RWTF