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Jtplumb Offline OP
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You guys need to post more, I can’t afford anymore German guns.
This one caught my eye, I guess it was the round action. I have researched it after the purchase and found some comments some of you had made. At 315.00 I didn’t think I could lose.
Will come in next week and I have the mechanic for horn, safety cover broke, only horn schnabel looking piece at grip.Any suggestions on what to do or not to do with it?
Serial number dates it within 100 digits of the 1927 on German hunting gun Meffert archive gun of same model
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Seller says tight and barrels great inside.
I believe this is the only shotgun I have ever owned that has strikers, the design looks super simple.
I will have mechanic try the ultrasonic cleaner on action it has quite a bit of color.
Any comments or suggestions? I can’t believe I have a Lefaucheux action and like it.

Last edited by Jtplumb; 05/27/22 08:37 PM.
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Meffert-Suhl "Hubertus Sichrheitssystem".

Yours is a Meffert, W.Nr.: 1244, ca 1920, probably already nitro fired, with this system; here still with the long forend bolt according to Lefaucheux.
The function of the safety: the lever under the shooting hand is, let down, a safety setting, which the hammer springs are (almost) relaxed; with a firm grip, the lever is pressed against the stock neck, thereby tensioning the springs and the weapon is ready to fire. Sense: when driving through fields and meadows, the shotgun can be loaded but safely guided, in the moment of game view and pull up the shotgun is virtually cocked by itself.
You can also lock the gun in the cocked position by means of the small catch lever at the end of the safety, then the gun is always ready to shoot.

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[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

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So once you cock it by pulling or gripping up the lever it will no longer be on safe until de-cocked? How do you properly de-cock?

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Jtplumb,
Since the strikers would still be held by the sears, it is not exactly de-cocking. The tension on the springs is relaxed by pressing the catch and releasing the lever, thereby achieving the same thing.
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Okay thanks will be interesting to get inside this one.Here is one made same year (100 digits from this one 1927).
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Last edited by Jtplumb; 05/28/22 04:00 PM.
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Lovely acquisition. If post 1923, the datecode will be on the flats.

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What a beautiful piece of conservative Teutonic elegance!
I think I might have a tired triple-gun with a similar grip safety burried somewhere.

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Thanks Jani, you articulated my thought on this gun perfectly “ conservative Teutonic elegance!” . Only you fellows would understand that.
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
All seems to be here and original, serial number is on butt plate. I will get Cole to match up the horn safety guard/cover with the other original horn lever. Pretty old but sleek design for 1927? Will look nice next to the family drilling
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

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Yeah, that Drilling looks to have an Austrian style stock?

>>Hubertus Gewehr DRGM 32200<<, is that how it reads on the double?


Too, I have seen >>DRP 7812<< I believe on the triggerplate or on the lever????

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=194167&page=1

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And there seems to be a Meffert novel design under DRP Hubertusgewehr DRP-Nr. 7142? I'll have to do a bit of diggin' to sort it all.

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Ah-Ha, found info on DRP 7142:

>>The gun shown in Martin Krause's photos is an Immanuel Meffert, Suhl "Hubertus" safety gun, a later type with toplever opening. The unique triggerplate lockwork was invented and patented by the forester Franz Feist, Sommerschenburg, DRPatent # 7142 of 1879. I have an earlier example with the Lefaucheux underlever breech action, datable to 1893 both by the crown/V mark and family history. Opening the gun pushes back the hammers to the cocked position, as usual. Releasing that pistolgrip-like lever from the small of the stock partially uncocks the mainspring (yes, there is only one four-pronged omega-shaped spring in that double gun!), blocks the triggers and blocks the hammers back from the firing pins. If you want to use the gun you press that lever back to the stock, where it is caught by a little latch. Will post some photos soon. Only much later "Hubertus" became a more general I.Meffert trademark applied to drillings and other guns.<<

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forum...p;Words=feist&Search=true#Post328938

The action area of my own I.Meffert "Hubertus" safety gun. [Linked Image from up.picr.de]

The lockwork of this perfectly round actioned gun with the unique mainspring. This is the type of lock usually found in the "Hubertus" guns until end of production around WW1. "Safe" position.
[Linked Image from up.picr.de]

Another, even much earlier Meffert "Hubertus" gun. This V-spring lockwork is still much closer to Franz Feist's 1879 patent drawing."Fire" position in lockwork photo
[Linked Image from up.picr.de]

[Linked Image from up.picr.de]

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So the Meffert Safety System is actually that of Forester Franz Feist of Sommerschenburg. I do wonder if Meffert purchased Feist's novel advancement or just lifted it?


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Thanks for the other link, it is hard to believe he was using that lever as late as 1931. Wow. Old timers must have liked it.

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Raimey,
The Drilling has a Bavarian cheekpiece. They were pretty popular because some stockmakers preferred them and "pushed" them. They were easier to form than the traditional or German cheekpiece. Note the rear of the Bavarian cheekpiece can be formed by a drawknife after being blocked out by a bandsaw. The German cheekpiece takes considerably more time.
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Ah, Bavarian... Thanks Ford.

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Also, Meffert used a horizontal striker block system that was retained to the top tang by a couple screws and thanks to Wolfgang on locating DRP #98923 attributed to Johann Kulhanek in Neunkirchen. Protection was sought on July 29th, 1897.


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Meffert also had a novel advancement for a side lock under DRP Nr. 4770 from September 11th, 1878. Wolfgang made a lovely find here too.


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That drilling was retailed in Munich by A. Schurk.

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I just found this:

"Adam Schurk traded in his catalogs as Waffenfabrik in Munich, Morassiestrasse 2a.

However, he was more of a dealer than a manufacturer, buying high-quality weapons from many renowned, especially smaller, gun manufacturers in Suhl and selling them under his own name.

He also had Heeren rifles in his sales program.

He was active after the turn of the century until the 30s/40s."

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Thanks Wolfgang. I had started my fascination with fine guns when my grandfather gave me that drilling at age 7, to make matters worse my dad had a ffl. I started researching soon as the internet came out. Later I found Raimey and some of you and got the answers I never could find or figure out. It’s been that way for decades now. Thanks again to all of you!

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Yeah, Adam Schurk / Schork was a specialist in Korntreiber. Looks like he had 62 years in 1936 and about this time he changed his name from Schurk to Schork. He was a master marksman with the pistol. Some cat named Xaver Haedel was the foreman of his concern.



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Yep Adam had some unsavory friends I found several things linking him to bad company. Even some Christmas cards with his artwork.
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

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That may be the reason for the name change?? Trying to escape some baggage? Or may have turned over a New Leaf, but I have serious reservations.


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I just got it apart, looks great! I hope these Ns are for nitro?
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

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[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

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Thanks to Wolfgang, I can better explain the specialty of Adam Schurk / Schork: Korntreiber. He was a front sight adjusted tool specialist.

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Those new fotos seems to advertise for Karl Hübental of Halle / Saale who hung out his gunmaking shingle in 1887.



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Too the concern of ole Karl Hübental went into receivership or liquidation in 1913, so that would bound the dates & possibly explain the Schilling forge tubes of the longarm being devoid of Nitro stamps?

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What are the 2 Ns for?

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I am not sure just yet. @ this point in time all the scattergun tubes were stamped on the sides just above the water-table barrel flat interface. Then after WWI the stamp migrated to the barrel flats.

But regarding this Schork Cat, there's a full text just on him. Data needs to be fully mined & composed as it will be most interesting & a great read.

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The Christmas card has a drawing and a personal note from corporal Adolph to the schurks, I have a pic around here on another computer think it was 1915/16, but they were obviously old friends.

These tubes are not Damascus but as of now I’m sticking to my low pressure(very low) reloads. Can you get any date from the other marks, I feel much safer after 1905. Bores measure .670 .673 marked 17/1

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And there was even an Idiot who paid 17000 € for this piece of Art......

http://www.hermann-historica-archiv...&c=156&t=temartic_N_D&co=204

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That’s the one. Bad art

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Gun shoots great it’s super light and has 30.8in barrels choked .015 .035.this one may have been restored it’s super tight and everything feels crisp. Triggers like breaking glass. Definitely a 3/4 or 7/8 oz 1150-1200 fps gun. Stock is great the way it is and I can live with tiny forend damage at edge, just needs the horn safety cover. I might hang this one in my den it just has that classic look like jani said. I sure do appreciate the men that built and designed these, true artists!
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

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I can only see the date range narrowed & banded by 1897-1912.



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The protection period for the novel idea DRGM was 3 years and could be extended up to 9(nine) I think but most were only extended to 6 years.

>>DRGM 32200, 25.09.1894: "U-f�rmig gebogene, bis zum Bug aufges�gte Doppelschlagfeder f�r hahnloses Jagdgewehr". this protected the U-shaped mainspring.(Waffenzeitung Suhl 1895) But it must have been made before, as my Hubertus-Gewehr shown above already has that spring. As my gun has the crown/V Vorratszeichen proof exemption mark, which was only struck on guns ready for sale between January 4, 1893 (date of the order) and March31,1893. "The V stamps are to be destroyed after April 1, 1893" as the proof law was then fully effective. The 1895 Waffenzeitung also has ads by I.Meffert. Here he advertises Hubertus guns both with the Lefaucheux breech action wit horn clad lever under foreend and, at a higher price, with top lever action like the gun on Krause's pre-WW1 photo.<<

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forum...p;Words=32200&Search=true#Post328988

So, if we assumed that the novel idea protection period started in 1894 & add 6 years, then the longarm would date between 1900 - 1912. But Meffert could have continued to add the advertisement of the Novel Advancement of 1894 under DRGM 32200.

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Thanks I have shot it now with 8k psi loads. It will be fine with my light stuff. I have been reloading 2.5in that operate my old brownings and my other nitro proofed stuff. Now I will just load some nice soft roll crimps for this one and the drilling. It patterns tight!

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Fret not about those Schilling Forge tubes. I do wonder if the Ns you mention on the flats might be Zs??

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I wouldn't mind knowing which loader you use to load and a recipe? 1 oz? 7/8s? or 1 1/16??

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Here is this gun i have in the 1911 Adolfo frank advertisement. Says ingot steel and I notice the higher grade of same gun says officially tested smokeless powder? Is that the one they had to pay fore?
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

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This is the rossetta stone for working man gun collectors like me. The German line translated to plain carbon steel. So what might tensile strength be of 1910 flusstahlaufe carbon steel? I’m guessing 70k psi?

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I have mec sizemaster with short kit, a roll crimp set up with drill press, powder drop and also a Texan progressive machine.I have 12 ga set up same way. I have a huge spreadsheet of 16ga published loads courtesy of other friends that I can share. Just pm me an email address if you need it.
I finally cleaned up that mess a while back.
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

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Um, what is the tube steel type on the longarm(s)?? Meffert was extremely loyal to Ehrhardt Stahl, which was more of a vessel type process vs bar stock converted into blanks or rough bored tubes. Now the Belgians took bar stock & converted it to a rough bored tube and then the Germans, Schilling Forge in this case, completed the process converting a rough bored tube into a barrel. And there was nothing short about the Schilling Forge for sure. If memory serves me correct, many of H.A. Lindner's offerings wore fluid steel tubes converted by the Schilling Forge.

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JT:

Would you mind posting a picture of the Texan progressive reloader? I have a Texan FW, the equivalent of a MEC 600 (one stage at a time, move the shell by hand from station to station). I had no idea Texan made a progressive press and I'd love to see one.

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https://www.ebay.com/itm/363852373952?hash=item54b74a9fc0:g:kFgAAOSw-WZij-8z
Not mine but I bought 4 from there over the years

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JT:

Thanks.

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Cleaned this one up it was covered in oil/wax substance probably saved the gun over the years. It weighs 6lbs on the nose.
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
These Meffert’s may be a little archaic but wow this thing is as tight as any gun I have handled, also feels great. I’m going to have Cole blue the barrels and replace the broken horn at safety and let this one be. Wish I could look and feel this good at 115+ years!

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Ok I have shot this thing ( 5 stand 3/4 oz 8s) and it’s almost embarrassing how well it feels and shoots. If it was same specs and had a snap action with a top safety, I wouldn’t be able to use any of my others dove hunting,it’s that nice. I started my recent (last 5 years) German gun buying spree looking for something that was basically the drilling without the rifle barrel. I believe this gun fits that bill closer than any of the 6 or 7 others I bought. I have handled other well made Scottish, Spanish and German round actions but this thing feel as nice as any! Yep it feels much like a Dickson, saying a lot for a gun at this price.

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Welcome to the Klub. You are Officially an addict. Whatever you do, don't venture over to the Austrian & Bohemian wares...... That's the point of no return......


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Originally Posted by ellenbr
Welcome to the Klub. You are Officially an addict. Whatever you do, don't venture over to the Austrian & Bohemian wares...... That's the point of no return......


Serbus,

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Haha. I bought into the German thing years ago, then ventured into CZ land and fell in love with my Lovena. I bought a Ferlach product in February so I guess I’m past the point of no return. eek

Last edited by canvasback; 06/12/22 11:14 AM.

The world cries out for such: he is needed & needed badly- the man who can carry a message to Garcia
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Just doesn't get much better than Lovely Lovena. Past it for sure. Just a couple steps to go. Acquire a F. Faukner in Praze or a J. Nowotný v Praze(House of 1000 Guns) the work up to the Pinnacle of Perfection: Johann Kalezky in Vienna.



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Too, you can throw in a Gustav Tichý in Moravská Ostrava or 2 in the mix.....

On a quick internet search, just noticed this text:

>>Gustav Tichý spent the second war in Belgium, where he left before the occupation and returned to Ostrava after the war. In 1948, the company was nationalized and Gustav Tichý left for Belgium permanently,.........<< I do wonder if it is factually correct?


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I tried to work out a deal with Felix about 5 years ago on a 16 gauge Nowotny but the logistics of getting it out of Europe and into Canada were too much. Its one thing to move them from England....It gets a whole lot harder from less accessible spots. As a Canadian, the way to do it is just hop a flight and bring it back.


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I have found great guns made by those guys but most all were out of my reach or others at less price seemed a better deal at the time. Much like this springer just a tad high
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

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I like the Borovnik fellas work just as much as those mentioned also. Absolutely gorgeous guns!

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Yeah, ole Ludwig Borovnik of Ferlach has some very nice wares & he was very loyal to his Slovenian heritage / roots. Wolfgang sent me today a link to a nice Borovnik drilling @ a good price.

But you know, I just never have been truly smitten by a Springer's Erben. I do wonder like Frantisek Faukner and many others including Tichy if Springer sourced their platforms >>in the white<< from Forgeron?

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Do they resemble this it’s Belgium and of I believe early 1900s
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

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Sorry here is one I actually thought about buying it was reasonably priced and wow!
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

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Now I fancy that last one, especially the fences but negate the ejectors. I'll do some diggin'......

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[Linked Image from img.photobucket.com]

[Linked Image from img.photobucket.com]



Frantisek Faukner on this BBS somewhere.


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Here is the tichy I can’t let go of the cash for. It hits all my buttons except 2k to high button got hit also.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

It has different locks than the 2 Belgium one of which is a forgeron

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I seem to recall that Tichý Gold washed/plated(can't pull up the term) or similar the internals his H&H style platform offerings? I would like to see the components on this one.


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Guilded, Guilded was the term for which I was searching. Here is a brute force translation of some Czech text:

>>He produced goats with Holland-Holland locks, which he made himself completely, and he always gilded all the internal parts of the locks. Hammerhead shotguns, double shotguns, shotguns, shotguns and single-shot rifles with a block closure are known. His weapons were often decorated with gold and had vintage wood on their stocks. Weapons are signed "Gustav Tichý Moravian Ostrava"<<

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Me too. The others are stocked to the fences not the tichy. Galazan is selling the tichy has had it for a year. 5k but is asking for offers.
I have 3 getting refinished now I’m not going to buy that thing. I am having a hard time shaking the round action thing for now. Gunmaker enjoyed the Meffert as much as I did, I dropped it off Yesterday.

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I do know that they constructed an Apartment Complex or Shopping Mall atop Gustav Tichý's gravesite. So all that really remains are his offerings/wares...... Pony up the funds for a rare find..... You only go around once.


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Great Find Wolfgang but man is that asking number up there?????

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Yes, unfortunately! But for 5000 he will probably also give it...


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[Linked Image from thumbs2.imgbox.com]

[Linked Image from thumbs2.imgbox.com]

It looks to be some Odd Belgian lock?? I don't even think it to be worth 1/2 of 5000€?


[Linked Image from thumbs2.imgbox.com]

Lovely Wood though....


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Originally Posted by Jtplumb
Sorry here is one I actually thought about buying it was reasonably priced and wow!
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Wow! Love that ornamentation!


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What’s engraving like that cost to have done today? I’m guessing 20,000.00 absolutely beautiful

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For me one of the most beautiful engravings ever in the typical classic Liège style. Definitely a Belgian shotgun.

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Originally Posted by Gunwolf
For me one of the most beautiful engravings ever in the typical classic Liège style. Definitely a Belgian shotgun.

Wolfgang

I could not agree more. Love the Liege style!


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I like those Continental guns. Here's a F. Thirifays just identical to the guns used by the 1924 Italian Olympic Team.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

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Wow! Took the Italians a while to catch up to these Belgium fellas huh. Lots of superb work out of the lowlands and early.

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Another Continental gun. Christophe , engraved by Schoffeniels.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

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I found this Belgium gun a while back for reasonable price, a little off subject but what is this small screw?
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

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Back to the Meffert gun, I found something similar in a cape gun but looks earlier(although has fluid steel barrels)
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/938025057

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[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Maker thought highly of the platform to put on wood like this and engrave the thing?

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You know, I am not sure on the maker on this platform regarding the two tabs that rear their heads @ the rear of the action?

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[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

I guess just an earlier form of Snails Ears of load indicators? Seem to be a bit far back for a typical Meffert?

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

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I saw that, made an impulse bid followed by buyer's remorse. I sweated it out until I was saved with 15 minutes left. It finally went ot the guy with the plaid tablecloth. It will likely show up again at $6250.
As mentioned, it is pretty odd but had really nice wood and a lot of engraving for a really off beat gun.

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Sorry I have been watching and bidding on several different guns, which gun are you speaking of? I think the odd one above sold for 625.00 but not sure

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Originally Posted by Jtplumb
Back to the Meffert gun, I found something similar in a cape gun but looks earlier(although has fluid steel barrels)
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/938025057

This one. It went for $765 with 4 bids.

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I had never seen one like that before, the safety was strange with a rod going through the trigger guard/lever. Reminded me of vice grips must be awkward to use. Maybe one of a kind?

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This one turned out way better than I imagined! Very Happy.
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

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Found another, barrel is rough but both pieces of horn and all the screws look good. Lord knows I’d have a tough time having that 4 way spring made. Plan on keeping the gun running a couple more lifetimes.
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

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That is a stock w/ a cheek-piece with which I find favour.

Lep Pazdrov,

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Couldn’t help myself, can’t believe how much I enjoy this design.
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

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The barrel lugs on these guns are about 1/4in off from each other. Surprised me, I thought Meffert sold an unfinished gun in the white to different retailers around Germany. These 2 are definitely built around the exact same action and both with schilling forge barrels.

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