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Forums10
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Most Online1,131 Jan 21st, 2024
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Joined: Jan 2006
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Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2006
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There were notices in spring issues of Breeder & Sportsman regarding a Parker Bros. publication https://archive.org/details/breedersportsma651914sanf/page/n180/mode/1up?view=theater which then appeared in the October 3, 1914 issue https://archive.org/details/breedersportsma651914sanf/page/n225/mode/1up?view=theaterIt appears to be an abbreviated version of Parker Brothers' “The Small Bore Shotgun” which was published c. 1915 http://parkerguns.org/pages/PDF%20Documents/Small%20Bore%20Shotgun.pdf Edwin Hedderly had published his first of many articles promoting small bores (and Parkers) in Forest Stream, December 26, 1908 “Twenty Bores for Duck Shooting” https://books.google.com/books?id=ejQevDPMUIYC&pg=PA1018&vq Nov. 13, 1909, “Small-bore Guns” https://books.google.com/books?id=l0kcAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA790&lpg A few more Arms & The Man 1915, “Loading Small-Bores” https://books.google.com/books?id=BX07AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA158&lpgRecreation 1917, “Handloading for Small-Bore Guns” https://books.google.com/books?id=4uVQAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA97&lpgOutdoor Recreation 1919, “Loading Small-Bores” https://books.google.com/books?id=BX07AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA158&lpgField & Stream, Nov. 1921, “Sixteen” – Or “Twenty” Which https://books.google.com/books?id=UPtAAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA704&lpgand T.H. Grant, Forest & Stream, December 1915 https://books.google.com/books?id=lRMcAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA711&lpgForest & Stream, Nov. 1918 “Keener sport with the 20 gauge gun” https://books.google.com/books?id=b91JAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA663&lpgOuters’ Recreation, July 1921 “Seventy Years Experience With 20 Gauge Guns” https://books.google.com/books?id=hns7AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA76&lpg
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2020
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It goes waay further back than that.
Purple Heather,m writing in 1891 in “Something about Guns and Shooting” at page 13:-
“My first game gun was a double-barrelled muzzle-loader by old Sam Nock. This was a “joint-stock affair” for my brother was to be allowed the use of it too. The gauge was 16, barrels 30 inches in length, known as the best “stub-twist”, weight between 6 1/2 and 6 3/4 lb. Young as I was never felt any great inconvenience for carrying it of a day, as long as there was something to shoot at.”
At page 26, in the early 1860’s his brother having taken the Nock abroad he is given a genuine Joe Manton ( some 30 years after the death of that great Gunmaker).
“I had never, hitherto, seen a double gun of so small a bore, and so light a weight.
The gauge was 22, and the gun weighed 6 1/4lbs.”
Bought from Whistlers in the Stand, converted from flint to percussion, 32 inch barrels. Case with 3/4 or 7/8 oz. Shot flask and 2 1/4, 2 1/2 and 2 3/4 dram powder flak.
“After carrying out a series of trials I discovered that 2 1/4 dr. Was the best charge of powder, and there was not much to chose between 3/4 oz and the 7/8 oz of shot. As to the size of the shot No. 7 decidedly suited best. It shot fairly well with No. 6; indifferently with No. 5; extremely well with No. 4.”
“With No. 7 I often killed partridges at distances between forty and fifty yards, but very rarely over fifty”
Last edited by Parabola; 06/21/22 03:39 PM.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 3,133 Likes: 309 |
Parabola is right and the origin of the small bore certainly goes back to Joseph Manton. This article in the 15 Feb 1879 edition of "Illustrated Sporting and Dramatic News" mentions a Reilly 20 bore that that was one of "Wildfowler"'s favorites (referenced in the Reilly history)... but it makes clear that Manton was at the origin of the idea.
Last edited by Argo44; 06/21/22 05:08 PM.
Baluch are not Brahui, Brahui are Baluch
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1 member likes this:
Parabola |
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Understood gentlemen, but I think we need to grant Parker Bros. some jounalistic license regarding their small bore marketing campaign. By 1914, with the cooperation of Bro. Hedderly (editor of Western Field starting in July 1910), Parker had been aggressively promoting small bores for waterfowl for > 5 years; and declared themselves "the pioneer makers in America" of the 20 bore in the May 1916 Forest & Streamhttps://books.google.com/books?id=VN1JAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA974&lpgThey were still offering the 20 bore booklet in 1921 July 1921 Outers' Recreationhttps://books.google.com/books?id=hns7AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA86&lpg
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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And Parker Bros. made 5 SBT's in twenty bore.
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Joined: Dec 2001
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 6,264 Likes: 196 |
I have a matched pair of .410 muzzleloading shotguns that I assume were from the 1850s.
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 6,264 Likes: 196
Sidelock
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Sidelock
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I have a matched pair of .410 muzzleloading shotguns that I assume were from the 1850s.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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The DuPont Shooting School at Atlantic City limited guns to 20g, and Ithaca made at least 1 20g SBT for the school. From the May 1917 Outdoor Life
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2006
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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By the 1880 Union Metallic Cartridge Co. catalog, they were offering paper cases in 8-, 10-, 12-, 14-, 16- & 20-gauge.
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Joined: Dec 2020
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Gene, Close to the top of my list of guns I should never have sold is a little E.M. Reilly Damascus Barrelled early A and D (single hook lump, round cocking levers, top doll head bite only) 20 bore double. I later found out that Edwinson Green had converted it to Ejector in the 1930’s when it was about 50 years old. I just hope that its later custodians made better use of it than I would have done.
Last edited by Parabola; 06/23/22 03:30 PM.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 3,133 Likes: 309 |
Interesting sounding gun Parabola. Do you happen to recall the serial number? Not to divert another line to my history but this .410 SxS side lever hammer gun is the one Reilly I should have gone after. SN was 25851, early 1884. I seem to recall 28" barrels. https://www.guntrader.uk/guns/shotguns/reilly-em/hammer/410-gauge/side-lever-180723174108286 Beautifully scaled little 410 hammer-gun ( collectors piece ), reproofed 2007 and very rarely fired since ! bores in particularly good condition , unusual to find a 410 with Damascus barrels -- top rib reads E M Reilly & Co 16 New Oxford Street, London & RUE SCRIBE PARIS . metric bore measurement 10.50mm in both tubes and estimated chokes LH 1/4 RH 1/8 with the chambers being 2 1/2"
Last edited by Argo44; 06/23/22 04:54 PM.
Baluch are not Brahui, Brahui are Baluch
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67galaxie |
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2008
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Understood gentlemen, but I think we need to grant Parker Bros. some jounalistic license regarding their small bore marketing campaign. No Preacher, we don't "need to grant Parker Bros. some jounalistic license regarding their small bore marketing campaign." The "advent of the small bore gun" happened long before Parker Bros. Gun Co. was founded in 1867. To suggest that they were responsible for the birth of small bore shotguns is totally incorrect. It is the same sort of false and misleading information as your assertions that small bore Ithaca Flues guns and Fox guns have some factory design defect that makes them prone to frame cracking. We have quite enough Fake News in our world without bringing it to the Doublegunshop forum too. Before Parker Bros. existed, there were pinfire shotguns and shells produced in 16, 18, 20, 24, and 28 gauge. There were even .360 bore pinfire shotguns. Small bore guns were in use long before there were self-contained cartridges. There were small bore flintlock fowlers, and it wouldn't surprise me to learn that there were small bore wheellocks and matchlock guns preceding those. Here's a pic of a .410 pinfire shell, circa 1857.
A true sign of mental illness is any gun owner who would vote for an Anti-Gunner like Joe Biden.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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I must assume your hatred blinded you to the QUOTATION MARKS in the title of this thread William. The " " indicates the title of the pamphlet published by Parker Bros., which I thought some here would find interesting, along with Parker's marketing of small bore guns. But let me help. If for instance your double gun maker of interest published an ad which states "The Finest Gun In The World" ( Breeder & Sportsman 9-24-1892), the quotation marks indicate this was an assertion by Lefever, not the person providing the quotation. Likewise, Parker Bros. claimed to be the "Best Gun Made" in 1893 (note the quotation marks), which does not mean they were
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Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
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Posts: 9,398 Likes: 307 |
More on the small bore gun; from Capt. Charles Askins' and E.M. Sweeley's “Ballistics of the Shotgun” series in Outdoor Life June, 1921 “Killing Range of the 20 Gauge” https://archive.org/details/sim_outdoor-life_1921-06_47_6/page/386/mode/2upJanuary 1923 “Developing A Duck Load In The 20 Bore” https://archive.org/details/sim_outdoor-life_1923-01_51_1/page/30/mode/2upFebruary. “Duck Loads in the 20 Bore II” https://archive.org/details/sim_outdoor-life_1923-02_51_2/page/112/mode/2upAugust 1922, “20 & 28 Gauge Pressures and Velocities” https://archive.org/details/sim_outdoor-life_1922-08_50_2/page/120/mode/2up20 gauge with DuPont Bulk. Plus 10 - 14%7/8 oz. 2 1/4 Dr. Eq. = 10,550 psi 2 1/2 Dr. Eq. = 11,715 psi 1 oz. 2 1/4 Dr. Eq. = 12,029 psi 2 1/2 Dr. Eq. = 13,373 psi 28 gauge 5/8 oz. 2 Dr. Eq. = 8,714 psi 3/4 oz. 2 Dr. Eq. = 10,259 psi 3/4 oz. 2 1/8 Dr. Eq. = 10,998 psi 7/8 oz. 2 Dr. Eq. = 12,387 psi
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Outdoor Life July 1923 “Progressive Powders in the 20 Bore” https://archive.org/details/sim_outdoor-life_1923-07_52_1/page/52/mode/2upDuPont No. 93 Progressive Burning Powder (which became DuPont Oval) in the 20g Super-X 1 oz. load with No. 7 1/2 shot 9,184 psi; No. 8 shot = 9856 psi + 10-14%
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