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Aug 5th, 2016
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ellenbr Offline OP
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Not sure if anyone has an true interest but there are always sidebar conversations ongoing & I thought this W. Foerster to be of interest as the frame is Austrian, tubes are Belgian and proofs are German and then sold in Berlin. I guess no different than today and all about the Benjamins......

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These pattern welded tubes were of course imported in the rough from the talented mechanics Liège, Belgium by Samuel Buckley & Company, who were for the most part importer / exporter and had an office in Liège, Belgium. They had to have an office in Germany too. Then the tubes were completed by Büchsenmacher Emil Barthelmes of Zella Sankt Blasii. My guess would be the W. Foerster sourced a gesteck / parts kit from Ferlach, Austria & the tubes from Liège, Belguim, then had Emil Barthelmes finish everything, send it thru the Zella-Mehlis proof facility & ship it to him. Just like the Liège mechanics, the Zella - Mehlis mechanics were looked down up by the Suhl gunmaking centre & the Z-M mechanics always worked for cheaper rates like the Liège mechanics. So a Berlin retailer like Förster would source the kits, then have it built in Z-M to pad his bottom $(dollar). The longarm was subjected to an additional voluntary proof, which looks to be pretty stout, and an additional fee was paid for the voluntary proof. Maybe Dr. Hause can perform the powder Calculus on it?



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Raimey
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The nice 4 Iron Hufnagel tubes were proved for a light load of 32 grams = 1 1/8 oz with only 2.2 gram = 34 grains "Schultze"
Original "Schultze" was 14 grains/dram so only 2 1/2 Drams. "New Schultze" was introduced (in the U.S.) about 1906 and was 12 grains/dram.

The SB&Co of Samuel Buckley has a bit different font than that of Sanderson Bros. & Co., and has been found on Twist N.R. Davis and fluid steel Ithaca Flues, Fox Sterlingworth and Lefever doubles

Samuel Buckley served on the Birmingham Proof House Committee and in 1863 was one of the officers in the British Small Arms Co. He later established a branch office in Detroit. Guns produced by William Powell in the 1860s exist marked Samuel Buckley & Co. Hammer guns and Anson & Deeley patent BLNEs were imported into the US by J. Palmer O'Neal of Pittsburgh, PA in the 1880's.
See The Double Gun Journal Vol. 22 Issue 3, 2011

The American Exporter’s Export Trade Directory of 1915 listed Samuel Buckley & Co. as “chiefly importers” with offices at 16 East 33rd St., New York, 2 Soho Square, London and Liege, Belgium.
Samuel Buckley & Co., Manhattan incorporated in July 1921.

Walt Snyder provided this quotation from Harry Howland regarding c. 1920 Ithaca Gun Co. barrels - “We were getting all our barrels forged, rough drilled and rough turned from Belgium. We were purchasing them from either Samuel Buckley & Co. or from J. Riga & Co. and it was not until two or three years later that we began purchasing those barrels from the Flannery Bolt Co.”

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ellenbr Offline OP
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Many thanks Hause for the fantastic tid-bit of info and for assisting in the chase of this rabbit.

See, Samuel Buckley is the key here in getting Belgian wares into England as he was involved with the Proofhouse & I am sure exploited the rules of Belgium & England to import price-point Belgian wares into England being devoid of Belgian proof-house marks as there was a loophole in the Belgian law that allowed for their wares to be shipped directly to an foreign proof facility and circumvent Belgian proof efforts. If you know the rules one can bend them....... Bend them to your monetary advantage.

Needless to say I am sure the concern was instrumental in getting price-point Belgian wares into the U.S. of A.

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Quite a lot of interbreeding. Once had a fancy back Cogswell and Harrison 16 ga. with a Paris address on the rib, and Austrian proofmarks. Fluid steel barrels.

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Raimey et al;

Thank you for this very interesting historical analysis of this gun; and the most informative discussion of the individuals and their companies involved in the sourcing of the gun parts and assembly.

Kindest Regards;
Stephen Howell

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ellenbr Offline OP
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No worries Stephen, just trying to get to the bottom of the sourcing lines for sporting arms from the >>Golden Age<< of Shotgunning.....


Mr. Hallquist:

Like your Coggy, I would say it was an >>international<< superposition of effort???

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Raimey
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ellenbr Offline OP
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Too, what could be said is that NO particular sporting arm was wholly made in a particular gunmaking centre during the >> Golden Age << of Gunning. Mechanics were dependent on other non-inland mechanics for components, and one craftsman wasn't going to recreate the wheel when there was another craftsman in Liège making wheels. But WWI kicked it off and particularly WWII saw where compagnies in a particular gunmaking centre started to perform all task possibly in-house or under their own umbrella. Sort of like the so called >>Supply chain<< issues we hear of today.

But if the full allotment of marks had not been worked off the tubes, picking up the pieces and putting the sporting weapons jig saw puzzle of who made what, would have been much easier. Then again I guess a copy of associated manifests would be most beneficial. But documents are always sacrificed to the ravages of time and all with which we are left are the worn marks themselves to tell the tale.

Serbus,

Raimey
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ellenbr Offline OP
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Yesterday was a day that this sporting weapons marks quest pretty much came full circle. The fella that provided me with my 1st German Combo had his son stop the car on the side of the road(where you typically can find me) to chat a moment. He has 89 years and is deaf as a post but had some device, sort of headset that he could hear a bit. I hadn't seen him in say 20+ years and really didn't know if he was still with us. We had made a trade on said Combo as a partial payment for some services I had rendered. He had acquired it from a friend in an Alabama Hunt Club. Turns out it was a donor and the springs were removed for a 16-65 over 8X57R/360 I believe. But this it THE Combo that sparked the flame into researching European Sporting Arms that has brought me this far. I decided last night to pen him a letter of Thanks for the initial contribution and hopefully he can still read as he cannot hear(Heavy Artillery or similar) and will not wear hearing aides.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

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