March
S M T W T F S
1 2
3 4 5 6 7 8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16
17 18 19 20 21 22 23
24 25 26 27 28 29 30
31
Who's Online Now
2 members (Gunning Bird, Argo44), 363 guests, and 3 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums10
Topics38,374
Posts544,005
Members14,391
Most Online1,131
Jan 21st, 2024
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Joined: Aug 2022
Posts: 3
FCW Offline OP
Boxlock
OP Offline
Boxlock

Joined: Aug 2022
Posts: 3
I received this old gal in trade and am having trouble identifying the exact model, age, and value. I could really use some help. If more pictures are required, I can supply them. What I know: Baker Hammerless, the last patent date is 1891, serial number 11 matching throughout (seems crazy low from what I have read), engraved with Damascus barrels and seems to be original butt plate. The old gent from whom I got it is the real deal and has had and used the gun for 50+ years. What I don't know: is it a Paragon, A,B, etc. is it Batavia, is it Ithaca, what year range and value as is. I know it is not in great shape but it appears to function smoothly. Your input is greatly appreciated, thanks in advance.

[img]https://images.gunsinternational.co...17549_149157_1CD9B00E6055D5DE.jpeg?65921[/img]
https://images.gunsinternational.co...17549_149157_A3C306C92FEE8B65.jpeg?97688
[img]https://images.gunsinternational.co...017549_149157_14C933CDFA7C5E55.jpeg?3033[/img]
https://images.gunsinternational.co...17549_149157_CE7A2B72796B16E8.jpeg?32501
https://images.gunsinternational.co...017549_149157_892282233276F7CA.jpeg?8351
https://images.gunsinternational.co...17549_149157_98D85670D5D85E35.jpeg?65162
https://images.gunsinternational.co...017549_149157_6B11E2D00B297AA3.jpeg?9504
https://images.gunsinternational.co...17549_149157_4174F07B4E87ED97.jpeg?84009
https://images.gunsinternational.co...17549_149157_BD8FCAC7D80B7938.jpeg?70357
https://images.gunsinternational.co...17549_149157_ED8893C14BB49DF6.jpeg?66630
https://images.gunsinternational.co...17549_149157_7AC0B0CB8DBEA0C8.jpeg?21320
https://images.gunsinternational.co...17549_149157_A75B89040ACBE740.jpeg?28742

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,398
Likes: 307
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,398
Likes: 307
It is a Baker Gun & Forging Co. first year production (1892) 2 pin lockplate A grade with the early etched 'engraving'

[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]

Remarkably in the 130 years of use, the screws have not been buggered, esp. small firing pin retaining screw.

The crack at the apex of the left lockplate must be repaired

[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]

The gunsmith doing the repair should establish the integrity of the damascus barrels with a bore scope and wall thickness gauge.

There is lots of information on Daryl Hallquist's Baker Collectors site
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1PqK3UImDCrsOrk6O_2DsovHXvaNSzliSiwaP35Y6PMk/edit

and similar early etched patterns are shown here; including a B grade SN 26 and a Paragon SN 260
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1uGeSuMJBPMNGh0ydCQXeAnpGRLANfl0Uhe954818veQ/edit

Joined: Aug 2022
Posts: 3
FCW Offline OP
Boxlock
OP Offline
Boxlock

Joined: Aug 2022
Posts: 3
Great stuff, thanks for the info! I will probably sell it as is, acknowledging the crack. I wondered if it was a Baker Gun & Forging Co. but the ones I saw said that on them. I guess the early ones didn't? Ant idea on value range as is? I'm in the process of listing it now. I want to get it in the hands of someone who will appreciate it and let them decide how much and what to repair, clean, etc.

Joined: Aug 2022
Posts: 3
FCW Offline OP
Boxlock
OP Offline
Boxlock

Joined: Aug 2022
Posts: 3
Actually, I see it now. BGF intertwined on the butt plate. I wondered what that was, pretty cool. Thanks again for the links too. I wish this gun looked like some of those in the links! Really great info and much appreciated.

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,398
Likes: 307
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,398
Likes: 307
Daryl or Dave will need to help us with this

[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]

Frank A. Hollenbeck was the BG&F plant superintendent 1890-1892. He had three patents granted while he was in Batavia, and two were assigned to Baker Gun & Forging; October 13, 1891 #461182
https://books.google.com/books?id=QIdRAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA193&lpg
and August 23, 1892 #481327.
Patent February 10, 1891 # 446166 was for Hollenbeck’s hammer safety device
https://patents.google.com/patent/US446166

I couldn't find Hollenbeck February 10, 1890 or October 14, 1891 patents

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 6,264
Likes: 196
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 6,264
Likes: 196
I have seen dozens of the early A and B grades with low serial numbers, but all were grade marked A or B beside the serial numbers. That said, the gun is Damascus barreled , so is not a B, and I think , without a Grade mark , not an A, either. The early Paragons, appeared about 2 years after the A and B grades with supposedly upgraded wood and engraving and Damascus barrels. I have never seen an early Paragon grade marked and all that I have seen had serial numbers , in their own series, that started at 100. The A and B series serial numbers started in a separate series beginning with number 1. Looking at this gun’s serial number on the receiver and barrel flats, it appears that the original number was 110 with the 0 x’d out for some reason. I think the gun was an early Paragon and the number 110 fits into the Paragon series.

1 member likes this: Drew Hause
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,398
Likes: 307
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,398
Likes: 307
1 pin Paragon SN 260 is the lowest Paragon SN image I have; with hand engraved breech balls and different wood contour around the lockplates

[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]


A c. 1892 A grade with the usual patents on the action flats

[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 6,264
Likes: 196
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 6,264
Likes: 196
Drew, I am away from my Patent Digest, so cannot search the Patent Dates on the gun’s underside. I’d guess the stamped information is just a bit off of the correct info. Maybe someone told the stamper what to put down from Memory. A dangerous thing, sometimes. When we also see the serial number stamping is sort of screwed up, we might suspect the errors like I said above. Maybe just a bad day at work.

1 member likes this: FCW
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,883
Likes: 106
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,883
Likes: 106
Originally Posted by Drew Hause
Daryl or Dave will need to help us with this

[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]

Frank A. Hollenbeck was the BG&F plant superintendent 1890-1892. He had three patents granted while he was in Batavia, and two were assigned to Baker Gun & Forging; October 13, 1891 #461182
https://books.google.com/books?id=QIdRAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA193&lpg
and August 23, 1892 #481327.
Patent February 10, 1891 # 446166 was for Hollenbeck’s hammer safety device
https://patents.google.com/patent/US446166

I couldn't find Hollenbeck February 10, 1890 or October 14, 1891 patents

Patents at that time were issued once a week. Patents weren't issued on those dates. The engraver had one too many beers with lunch.

The gun pictured by Drew above has two pins in the lockplates. I've not seen that before? Always one --

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

or three --

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Last edited by Researcher; 08/03/22 12:25 PM.
1 member likes this: FCW
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,883
Likes: 106
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,883
Likes: 106
In addition to the difference in the number of pins in the lock plates I see some differences in the frames of the three earliest Baker Hammerless guns I have pictures of. Small milled out slots for the drawblock --

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Large milled out slots --

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

No drawblock on this early B --

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

1 member likes this: FCW
Page 1 of 2 1 2

Link Copied to Clipboard

doublegunshop.com home | Welcome | Sponsors & Advertisers | DoubleGun Rack | Doublegun Book Rack

Order or request info | Other Useful Information

Updated every minute of everyday!


Copyright (c) 1993 - 2024 doublegunshop.com. All rights reserved. doublegunshop.com - Bloomfield, NY 14469. USA These materials are provided by doublegunshop.com as a service to its customers and may be used for informational purposes only. doublegunshop.com assumes no responsibility for errors or omissions in these materials. THESE MATERIALS ARE PROVIDED "AS IS" WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EITHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANT-ABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, OR NON-INFRINGEMENT. doublegunshop.com further does not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the information, text, graphics, links or other items contained within these materials. doublegunshop.com shall not be liable for any special, indirect, incidental, or consequential damages, including without limitation, lost revenues or lost profits, which may result from the use of these materials. doublegunshop.com may make changes to these materials, or to the products described therein, at any time without notice. doublegunshop.com makes no commitment to update the information contained herein. This is a public un-moderated forum participate at your own risk.

Note: The posting of Copyrighted material on this forum is prohibited without prior written consent of the Copyright holder. For specifics on Copyright Law and restrictions refer to: http://www.copyright.gov/laws/ - doublegunshop.com will not monitor nor will they be held liable for copyright violations presented on the BBS which is an open and un-moderated public forum.

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
(Release build 20201027)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 7.0.33-0+deb9u11+hw1 Page Time: 0.072s Queries: 39 (0.050s) Memory: 0.8687 MB (Peak: 1.8987 MB) Data Comp: Off Server Time: 2024-03-28 18:12:57 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS