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Joined: Aug 2022
Posts: 3
Boxlock
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OP
Boxlock
Joined: Aug 2022
Posts: 3 |
I received this old gal in trade and am having trouble identifying the exact model, age, and value. I could really use some help. If more pictures are required, I can supply them. What I know: Baker Hammerless, the last patent date is 1891, serial number 11 matching throughout (seems crazy low from what I have read), engraved with Damascus barrels and seems to be original butt plate. The old gent from whom I got it is the real deal and has had and used the gun for 50+ years. What I don't know: is it a Paragon, A,B, etc. is it Batavia, is it Ithaca, what year range and value as is. I know it is not in great shape but it appears to function smoothly. Your input is greatly appreciated, thanks in advance. [img] https://images.gunsinternational.co...17549_149157_1CD9B00E6055D5DE.jpeg?65921[/img] https://images.gunsinternational.co...17549_149157_A3C306C92FEE8B65.jpeg?97688[img] https://images.gunsinternational.co...017549_149157_14C933CDFA7C5E55.jpeg?3033[/img] https://images.gunsinternational.co...17549_149157_CE7A2B72796B16E8.jpeg?32501https://images.gunsinternational.co...017549_149157_892282233276F7CA.jpeg?8351https://images.gunsinternational.co...17549_149157_98D85670D5D85E35.jpeg?65162https://images.gunsinternational.co...017549_149157_6B11E2D00B297AA3.jpeg?9504https://images.gunsinternational.co...17549_149157_4174F07B4E87ED97.jpeg?84009https://images.gunsinternational.co...17549_149157_BD8FCAC7D80B7938.jpeg?70357https://images.gunsinternational.co...17549_149157_ED8893C14BB49DF6.jpeg?66630https://images.gunsinternational.co...17549_149157_7AC0B0CB8DBEA0C8.jpeg?21320https://images.gunsinternational.co...17549_149157_A75B89040ACBE740.jpeg?28742
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,430 Likes: 315
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,430 Likes: 315 |
It is a Baker Gun & Forging Co. first year production (1892) 2 pin lockplate A grade with the early etched 'engraving' Remarkably in the 130 years of use, the screws have not been buggered, esp. small firing pin retaining screw. The crack at the apex of the left lockplate must be repaired The gunsmith doing the repair should establish the integrity of the damascus barrels with a bore scope and wall thickness gauge. There is lots of information on Daryl Hallquist's Baker Collectors site https://docs.google.com/document/d/1PqK3UImDCrsOrk6O_2DsovHXvaNSzliSiwaP35Y6PMk/editand similar early etched patterns are shown here; including a B grade SN 26 and a Paragon SN 260 https://docs.google.com/document/d/1uGeSuMJBPMNGh0ydCQXeAnpGRLANfl0Uhe954818veQ/edit
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Joined: Aug 2022
Posts: 3
Boxlock
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OP
Boxlock
Joined: Aug 2022
Posts: 3 |
Great stuff, thanks for the info! I will probably sell it as is, acknowledging the crack. I wondered if it was a Baker Gun & Forging Co. but the ones I saw said that on them. I guess the early ones didn't? Ant idea on value range as is? I'm in the process of listing it now. I want to get it in the hands of someone who will appreciate it and let them decide how much and what to repair, clean, etc.
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Joined: Aug 2022
Posts: 3
Boxlock
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OP
Boxlock
Joined: Aug 2022
Posts: 3 |
Actually, I see it now. BGF intertwined on the butt plate. I wondered what that was, pretty cool. Thanks again for the links too. I wish this gun looked like some of those in the links! Really great info and much appreciated.
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,430 Likes: 315
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,430 Likes: 315 |
Daryl or Dave will need to help us with this Frank A. Hollenbeck was the BG&F plant superintendent 1890-1892. He had three patents granted while he was in Batavia, and two were assigned to Baker Gun & Forging; October 13, 1891 #461182 https://books.google.com/books?id=QIdRAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA193&lpg and August 23, 1892 #481327. Patent February 10, 1891 # 446166 was for Hollenbeck’s hammer safety device https://patents.google.com/patent/US446166 I couldn't find Hollenbeck February 10, 1890 or October 14, 1891 patents
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 6,273 Likes: 205
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 6,273 Likes: 205 |
I have seen dozens of the early A and B grades with low serial numbers, but all were grade marked A or B beside the serial numbers. That said, the gun is Damascus barreled , so is not a B, and I think , without a Grade mark , not an A, either. The early Paragons, appeared about 2 years after the A and B grades with supposedly upgraded wood and engraving and Damascus barrels. I have never seen an early Paragon grade marked and all that I have seen had serial numbers , in their own series, that started at 100. The A and B series serial numbers started in a separate series beginning with number 1. Looking at this gun’s serial number on the receiver and barrel flats, it appears that the original number was 110 with the 0 x’d out for some reason. I think the gun was an early Paragon and the number 110 fits into the Paragon series.
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1 member likes this:
Drew Hause |
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,430 Likes: 315
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,430 Likes: 315 |
1 pin Paragon SN 260 is the lowest Paragon SN image I have; with hand engraved breech balls and different wood contour around the lockplates A c. 1892 A grade with the usual patents on the action flats
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 6,273 Likes: 205
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 6,273 Likes: 205 |
Drew, I am away from my Patent Digest, so cannot search the Patent Dates on the gun’s underside. I’d guess the stamped information is just a bit off of the correct info. Maybe someone told the stamper what to put down from Memory. A dangerous thing, sometimes. When we also see the serial number stamping is sort of screwed up, we might suspect the errors like I said above. Maybe just a bad day at work.
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1 member likes this:
FCW |
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,894 Likes: 110
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,894 Likes: 110 |
Daryl or Dave will need to help us with this Frank A. Hollenbeck was the BG&F plant superintendent 1890-1892. He had three patents granted while he was in Batavia, and two were assigned to Baker Gun & Forging; October 13, 1891 #461182 https://books.google.com/books?id=QIdRAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA193&lpg and August 23, 1892 #481327. Patent February 10, 1891 # 446166 was for Hollenbeck’s hammer safety device https://patents.google.com/patent/US446166 I couldn't find Hollenbeck February 10, 1890 or October 14, 1891 patents Patents at that time were issued once a week. Patents weren't issued on those dates. The engraver had one too many beers with lunch. The gun pictured by Drew above has two pins in the lockplates. I've not seen that before? Always one -- or three --
Last edited by Researcher; 08/03/22 12:25 PM.
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1 member likes this:
FCW |
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,894 Likes: 110
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,894 Likes: 110 |
In addition to the difference in the number of pins in the lock plates I see some differences in the frames of the three earliest Baker Hammerless guns I have pictures of. Small milled out slots for the drawblock -- Large milled out slots -- No drawblock on this early B --
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1 member likes this:
FCW |
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