doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Johann Fanzoj (Ferlach) 1946 Side by Side

Hi All,
I was pointed the direction of this forum by a local double gun person. I'm hoping that someone can shed additional light on this Johann Fanzoj 12 gauge that I have recently acquired. I know that it is dated to 1946, nitro proofed, 2-1/2 chamber, and had some rib work done by Classic Arms in Tennessee. I'm hoping to get some more about the history of the gun/guns made in Austria in this time period and what PSI I should aim for reloading for this gun. Honestly, anything that you can offer for insight would be amazing! Thanks. I can add more pictures if needed.

Um, looks like one of the Bread guns or a longarm made for a British officer during the occupation of Ferlach post WWII. Then it followed the British officer home and experienced reproof. But what is all that shrapnel on the lower rib obscuring the preliminary datastring? Pleasure us with an image of the water-table and I may be able to garner some info from teh Fanzoj ledger, if it still exists.


The Brits occupied Ferlach post WWII and issued maker numbers to the Ferlach mechanics.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Fanzoj is a pretty famous maker, and the firm is still in business. They come right up in google.

Dietrch Appel was working on an information base for German guns (which would include Austrian) when he died. That might also prove helpful. I can't remember the exact wording of the association.

That should be a very nice gun. Best of luck with it.

https://fanzoj.com/mountain-kingdom/


Fanzoj's latest project, a single shot culminating a 2 year effort. A 338 Lapua Mag that is supposed to have the recoil of a 22 Mag or similar??


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,
Thanks for the information. I have added a picture of the watertable for you. As for the rib, Classic Arms in Tennessee did some work to the rib - which I believe has been replaced. I called them describing the work and they thought that it was welded material for reinforcement. I've been told they do quality work on vintage guns so I'm not questioning it - It's a gun I plan on using in the field anyway.

Um hum, so the >>21.30<< will be Fanzoj's British issued maker number, using House Numbers I think??, and it was Nr. 30. I will check with Fanzoj.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Thanks! Let me know what you find. As for the PSI I should be loading for; what would people suggest? Below 9,000?

I would say so, probably just for the recoil but Dr. Hause or Mr. Brown will have to do that Calculus on the 3 Tons per Square Inch.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

I do wonder what the repair that was performed in England might have been?

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Fanzoj gives that they were not allowed to make weapons till circa 1955?? And this would have been for a British General, or Officer in my book.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Thanks so much! That's funny that they say they don't make firearms until 1955. I guess my final question is, is it a good gun? I paid $1000 USD for it. Is that a good deal?

Fanzoj did not say that they "don't make firearms until 1955". They said that they were not allowed to make weapons til circa 1955. What Fanzoj did between the end of the war in 1945 until the war's allied victors allowed them to begin commercial production of firearms in 1955 is unlikely to be recorded history by the British and their allies for a number of good reasons at the time. For you old guys like me who remember radio it might be said: "....only the Shadow knows."

Bushveld is most correct as the occupying force did not allow the manufacture of weapons till much later. Like the Mongrel klan, they aren't allowed knives(an sometimes forks) at the dinner table as they might just stab one another so they eat with a spoon or chopsticks.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

I think it is a whale of a deal for a Fanzoj if it works. That repair worries me a bit but others may give it a pass??


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

I enlarged the image of the "repair" on the bottom rib and it doesn't resemble any sort of welding I've ever seen. It looks more like a soldering job that didn't go too well, and that some peening of the solder was done. Hard to tell, but I'm guessing the entire short section of rib behind the forend loop may have been missing, and someone decided to just fill the gap with solder. I'm betting that if you were to forward that image to Classic Arms, they likely would not want to take credit for it.

It may not affect anything, and it is hidden under the forend... but I'd want to repair it properly, and check the integrity of the solder joint on the forend loop. It would really suck to be out hunting, and have the forend loop pop loose, and possibly lose it and the forend. Finding replacements would be near impossible. You may find the current Thread on rib relaying interesting.

I'm glad a new guy like you was able to post images here without any apparent problem. Some guys who have been here for years find it to be a daunting or impossible task. A few more pics of the complete gun might make it easier to get an accurate valuation.

I am satisfied that firms like Fanzoj likely build guns during the post war period at the directions of occupying forces for the use of those forces and for others. There had to be all kinds of off the record activities happening.

Sure, there very well may have been records, but Fanzoj doesn't want to own up to them so maybe the Brits have the records? Fanzoj, like most other Ferlach makers, prefer to be known as mechanics to Kings, Lords, Princes, ect. and they may not want to openly admit that they were making Bread Guns for British Military Officers just to get by..... The same happened in Suhl but the Occupying force was of course the Russians. In both instances, the mechanics were using pre-WWII components and about anything they could get their hands on. In Suhl, the Russians took the newer equipment and even pulled up the rail piece by piece as they were leaving. Also leaving functional equipment out in the elements to ravages of time.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

There were plenty of "cigarette "rifles built for Americans too, mostly in 30-06, using machine gun barrels. Usually, if not always, without proof marks though.
Mike

Yeah, a Fanzoj forend would run 10k €?? Well, at least 5,000€.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=494957

Some Tonnes / in^2 to PSI Calculus.


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Andrew, Nice gun and fabulous maker. I am a Fanzoj owner, but not an expert by any means. My understanding about the firm is that they produced high quality, but typical, German/Austrian guns from their founding until approximately 2000 when they transformed into a lower-volume niche and art-gun manufacturer of exceptional quality. I found this on their excellent website:

After a short period of stagnation in 1945, demand for hunting weapons set in again. In the peak years from 1965 to 1980, Fanzoj produces up to 200 weapons per year. The crisis of the U.S. dollar in the 1980’s, as well as the growing international competition who increasingly move into serial mass production of their weapons, push Ferlach into a slump. In 1946 there are still 56 gunsmith companies in Ferlach, but the numbers drop continuously. Today, only a handful of highly specialized family-firms continue to build hand-crafted hunting weapons in Ferlach. During those difficult times Johann Fanzoj, Senior Manager, succeeds in expanding the company to world-wide recognition and opens new areas of business and trade. An avid hunter and world traveller himself, Johann Fanzoj sen. is the first Ferlach gunsmith to go on a safari to Africa in 1969 – and initiates the era of large caliber double rifles in Ferlach; highly esteemed working tools among professional hunters in Africa. His good relations to high-profile personalities such as Marshall Tito (the legendary post-War leader of the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia) leads to Fanzoj hunting weapons becoming treasured gifts presented by and to heads of state.


Interesting discussion about the "21.30" I wonder if this is the serial number. My Fanzoj rifle of recent manufacture has "21.2XXX" engraved on the tang which I took to be the serial number.

I did a little more searching and discovered that "21" is the Ferlach manufacturer code for Fanzoj. Apparently all of the Ferlach gunmakers received a number to identify guns manufactured by them post-1945. The first number, #21, was issued to Fanzoj, the second gunmaker received #22, etc. The number following the dot is the serial number. So it appears that Andrew's gun was the 45th gun manufactured by Fanzoj after being issued the 1945 code and mine was 2,000+ made in 2008. All in all a relatively small output!

No, it would be Nr. 30 for Fanzoj in 1946 with the same being Nr. 807 to pass thru the Ferlach proof facility in 1946. Production was for British Officers or similar only.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Evidently we are not going to get much more, if any, info from Fanzoj. Like most makers they typically don't look back and prefer to gaze forward. Most of us here know the history of various gunmakers better than they know themselves. They almost turn a blind eye to it as if once a longarm leaves the shop, they purge all memory of it less a date & serial number. I guess those of us here attach too much nostalgia to the pieces of various makers. But on occasion if a specific longarm was issues to a ruling faction, then the makers seem to have interest there. Seemingly that the makers want to think that all there wares landed up in the hands of custodians that were nobility, for want of a better term.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Could you pleasure us with a image of the area from the flats up to the forend hanger?? That repair makes me curious.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Man, that short rib repair is awful. That’s really too bad on what appears to be a rather nice continental gun.
I wonder what the thought process was behind that attempt? Is the short rib still underneath all that peened solder/lead? Is it gone completely? Why? So many head scratching questions.

I am voting for Miss Fanzoj as the most attractive female gun company owner. She is very well spoken and obviously erudite. I really have no knowledge of Austrian guns, but this is the info I found on Austrian serial numbers. It is interesting that Fanzoj is listed twice. I wonder if there were two gunmakers by the same name, perhaps different branches of the same gunmaking family.


Ferlach gunmaker codes, post 1945 - xxxx being the maker's serial number

21.xxxx Johann Fanzoj
22.xxxx Josef Hambrusch
23.xxxx Karl Hauptmann
24.xxxx Josef Just
25.xxxx Josef Kruschitz
26.xxxx Jakob Koschat
27.xxxx Simon Kalischnig
28.xxxx Peter Mischitz
29.xxxx Josef Mischitz
30.xxxx Josef Orasche
31.xxxx Michel Pegam
32.xxxx Anton Sodia
33.xxxx Franz Sodia
34.xxxx Johann Sigot
35.xxxx Walter Outschar
36.xxxx Wincenz Urbas
37.xxxx Benedikt Winkler
38.xxxx Gunmaker's Guild
39.xxxx Handgun Technical School
40.xxxx Ludwig Borovnik
41.xxxx Johan Michelitsc
42.xxxx Josef Winkler
43.xxxx Thomas Kulnig
44.xxxx Walter Gratzer
45.xxxx Erich Achatz
46.xxxx Josef Schonlieb
47.xxxx Lorenz Schaschl
48.xxxx Johann Fanzoj
49.xxxx Franz Schmid
50.xxxx Franz Schmied
51.xxxx Gottfreid Juch
52.xxxx Valentin Roesenzopf's sons
53.xxxx Wilfried Glanznig
55.xxxx Herbert Scheiring

Thanks to Peter N for completing this list.

Copyright 2012 © shotguns.se

Last updated: 2012-11-23

Here's a better picture of the fore end area with the repair. Ultimately, I am most likely a long-term owner of the gun, so the crudeness of the repair doesn't completely detract from my use of the gun. Out of curiosity, would this be something that a more skilled gunsmith could rectify? And how much would something like that typically cost? My best guess is there is no rib under this solder

It looks like someone flooded solder over the short rib I can't imagine the rib not being there eventually the solder would compress unless a piece of steel was added very strange repair

Mark;

I enlarged the photo and it may be that someone placed a lead bar down into the opening and hammered it in place.

Mark;

I enlarged the photo and it may be that someone placed a lead bar down into the opening and hammered it in place with a hollow face punch or a tube

Hmm…so the question is, do I have someone take it out and open the proverbial Pandora’s Box?

Pandora's box has already been opened, unfortunately.

The question now is whether you will close it by having a proper rib repair done, or will you wait until something far worse happens... such as losing the forend and forend loop???

If it was just some cheap clunker, I'd advise you to shoot it as is. In this event, I'd advise fixing it right. At very least, the present state isn't going to do anything to enhance resale value.

It sure does look like a peened lead bar??

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Leave it or have someone mess with it? Can a rib even be replaced? I would imagine that’s expensive.

I would just leave it. Yes, a segment of the lower rib can easily be replaced. If you ever have a need for work in that area, have it replaced. It just looks like a stop-gap measure? I am not a gunsmith nor play one on TV, but I just don't recall seeing such.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Stephen,it does look like that I have never seen a repair?like that if it works I guess leave it till it doesn't work

This is admittedly a long shot, but there might be a remote possibility that this is an amateur attempt to change the weight/balance of the gun. In any case I would leave it alone, at least for the time being.

AndrewB: you have a PM.


Cheers,
Jani

Could that not be the initials of the "repairer" indented into the lead? If so, they're upside down in the last pic, and may be "D F".

Great video, Stephen. Thanks for sharing that. Interesting to finally learn the correct pronunciation of Fanzoj. I wish more Americans would learn how to pronounce Leupold, the great American 'scope company. (It's Loo - pold, not Lee - uh - pold)

Unequivocally I can state it was not Daniela Fanzoj that peened the lead......

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Now, how can you be so sure of that, Raimey? Those interlocking rings could have been the result of a thought about the 500 years history of the company, a prototype idea, of sorts.

With all that interlocking rings it might have been an Olympics clays shooter.

Cheers,
Jani

Pure speculation- it looks like the short section of the under rib was lost and solder was puddled in to replace it but was too high for the forearm to fit. The peening was to move the solder to the edges, in fitting the forearm. The "DF" could have been a former owner, or anyone that had possession of it. I agree with Raimey that it was not Daniela Fanzoj that did it.
Mike

Anyone have a recommended gunsmith for vintage doubles like this in the Wisconsin area? This seems like a repair that I should seek out an expert vintage doubles gunsmith for.

Your Best Bet right out of the gate is the consult either New England Custom Gun, https://www.newenglandcustomgun.com/ , or Larry at Dutchman Wood Works, https://dutchmanwoodworks.com/ . There are others of course in the South and in Texas.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Here you go, a member here, and right there in Wisconsin. I haven't used Mark but he comes highly recommended by others.

https://www.mbabllc.com/page/page/7927803.htm

Oops, I see he is not taking any new work at this time due to a work backlog, but it wouldn't hurt to call him just to see.

Thanks! He's actually the one who sent me to this forum to get some additional info about the gun. Him and I are chatting via email about the work that would perhaps be needed to put the rib back

Could that lead be a way of changing the gun's balance ?

If changing the balance was the intent of this, then the so called "gunsmith" responsible couldn't have been very smart. It doesn't appear that there is even a full ounce of solder there, and it was placed a a point between the hands. It is so close to the hinge pin, that the effect upon balance would be negligible. Probably no more than the difference between having a fired shell in one chamber versus a loaded round.

I still think it was a crude repair to the short section of under rib. And the questions in my mind are whether the rib section is still there, or if it was missing, and the void was filled with solder, packed with steel wool , or what??? Another concern is if the job was done in such a crude manner, was corrosive flux used, and not properly flushed out? When I see bubble gum and baling wire type repairs, I tend to question every aspect of the job in question.

That odd circular peening pattern makes me wonder if Bubba used a cup point set screw as a punch....
and D F could stand for Dumb F**k.

What are peoples feelings on reaming out the chamber so I can load low pressure 2-3/4 shells. I have a MEC progressive loader that was my grandfathers that I’d like to reload with. Obviously I would not shoot modern 2-3/4 factory loads through it.

Folks say if there is sufficient barrel thickness there's no harm. I say removing any metal from a barrel where the detonation takes place is a mistake. I bet there is a way to adjust your MEC to load 2.5" shells...Geo

Andrew:

I've had great success shooting low pressure (sub-7500 psi) 2-3/4 inch reloads in 2-1/2 inch chambers. I use the data out of the Lyman reloading manual and have found that Clays powder lets you get a load that is low pressure with 7/8 or 1 ounce of shot.

If you measure your fired hulls, you'll find some of the nominally 2-3/4 inch hulls are more like 2-11/16 inch or even slightly shorter. The crimped section does not extend the entire length of the forcing cone, which I think would help keep pressures lower than a longer hull might.

Winchester AA hulls seem to be the shortest of the hulls in my assortment, but I don't load Federals or Cheddites, except in 10 gauge, so you'd have to check them to see how they might measure.

Rem

That’s the logic I was kind of operating on, but turns out they already were reamed to 2-3/4. Took it up to the gunsmith after work and they measured and confirmed. Makes loading easier for sure.