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Joined: Jun 2002
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Sidelock
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Originally Posted by BrentD, Prof

Interesting gun. Rarely see any other than a straight hand stock.

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Bro. Venters came through, and his article "The Short-Shell 12" in May-June 2017 Shooting Sportsman is a must read

2" proof and service pressures were the same as 2 1/2" - 3 Dr. Eq. with 1 1/8 oz. shot with a mean pressure of 3 1/4 tons by LUP = 9,800 psi by Burrard’s conversion.

[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]

2 inch "metal cartridge loaded with full 2 1/2" charge may shortly be a standard British cartridge (and) proof of the 2" gun should be identical with the 2 1/2" "

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Drew, holding 2.5" and 2" guns side by side makes a pretty convincing argument against that higher proof.

My Jeffrey 2" is only 55mm across the breech face. There is not much metal surrounding those chambers.


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BrentD, (Professor - just for Stan)

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]


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Brent, your pictures look a lot like my pictures, but without my gun in hand its hard to tell. The engraving on the frame is quite similar, but of course my straight stock is different as well as being changed by the comb-rizer addition and pad. Pin placement on the frame looks about the same. Thanks to all for the responses to my inquiry regarding 2" guns...Geo

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well, why not have a gunsmith hog out the chambers to 2 3/4 and shoot 7/8 oz b&p loads...

dont git up set...jes kiddin guys...


keep it simple and keep it safe...
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Brent: what is the end-of-chamber wall thicknesses of your 2" and 2 1/2" guns? And DOM?

Under the 1954 Rules of Proof 2” chamber guns MAY have been proved for 2 3/4 tons = 8,193 psi max. service load. Vic is looking into it.

John Brindle, author of Shotgun Shooting: Techniques & Technology published a review of Proof and Service pressures in Part 5 of his series in The Double Gun Journal, “Black Powder & Smokeless, Damascus & Steel”; Volume 5, Issue 3, 1994, “Some Modern Fallacies Part 5”, p. 11. His estimated post-1954 but pre-CIP standard pressures by LUP converted to piezo transducer PSI did not include 2"
12g 2 1/2" Standard Service = 6,800 psi; Max. Service 8,800 psi

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Originally Posted by Drew Hause
Brent: what is the end-of-chamber wall thicknesses of your 2" and 2 1/2" guns? And DOM?

Under the 1954 Rules of Proof 2” chamber guns MAY have been proved for 2 3/4 tons = 8,193 psi max. service load. Vic is looking into it.
It looks like it's in the mid to low 0.08s on the right and a little thicker on the left.

My understanding is that some of the real early guns were proofed at 1.125 ounces as if they were 2.5"/1.125 oz guns because the proof houses were caught off guard without a standard for them. Later, the proof was dropped to 0.875 ounces. I have never heard what the pressure levels were.


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BrentD, (Professor - just for Stan)

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]


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Ted, from a three page pamphlet by Charles Hellis as to his company's reasoning behind the Two Inch Twelve compared to the 20 ga.:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

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Gil,
I’ve read it. But, that doesn’t mean I put much stock in it. Nothing against Hellis, per say, but, very little advertising on old double guns isn’t just hype. I will say, if my biggest problem were having trouble changing from a 12 to a 20, it is a pretty good sign of dwelling in the first world, a great thing.

Modern 20 gauge ammunition patterns superbly. Maybe it didn’t, back in the day. But, it does now. 2” ammunition would seem to be a problem of late. Factory loaded, and components, as well.

Best,
Ted

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Gil: Charles Hellis & Sons sold proprietary shotgun shells. Does the pamphlet specify the 2" loading?

BTW: here's Vic's article
https://shootingsportsman.com/short-shell-12-2-guns/

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