March
S M T W T F S
1 2
3 4 5 6 7 8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16
17 18 19 20 21 22 23
24 25 26 27 28 29 30
31
Who's Online Now
7 members (SKB, FlyChamps, cpa, Dan S. W., Ken Nelson, 1 invisible), 807 guests, and 3 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums10
Topics38,374
Posts544,009
Members14,391
Most Online1,131
Jan 21st, 2024
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
#630374 05/20/23 10:13 PM
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 175
Likes: 73
AaronN Offline OP
Sidelock
***
OP Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 175
Likes: 73
It was stuck in France for a year and a half but it finally made it!

This Lefaucheux percussion shotgun is built on the Pauly system and was made shortly after Lefaucheux purchased the Pauly company in 1827 and patented an addition to the patent in early 1828.

[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]


Clock Guns, Pauly Guns, Pinfire Guns and Pinfire Cartridges
3 members like this: campero, Stanton Hillis, Parabola
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 3,134
Likes: 309
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 3,134
Likes: 309
Aaron, that is utterly incredible and that is epic history. And I'm not exaggerating. All the Purdey's, Church's, H&H's, - all the English center-break guns starting in the mid-1850's with Lang, Reilly and Blanch, are spawn of that gun.


Baluch are not Brahui, Brahui are Baluch
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 175
Likes: 73
AaronN Offline OP
Sidelock
***
OP Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 175
Likes: 73
This actually predates Lefaucheux's center-break patent. That comes 5 years later in 1833. But this is where the story starts!

This opens like this:

[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]

Last edited by AaronN; 05/20/23 11:07 PM.

Clock Guns, Pauly Guns, Pinfire Guns and Pinfire Cartridges
4 members like this: GLS, graybeardtmm3, campero, Parabola
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 11,313
Likes: 378
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 11,313
Likes: 378
I'm totally unfamiliar with this system, and would be interested in knowing more about it. I'm surmising that this gun is a percussion shotgun that is loaded from the breech end.

If this is correct, then I am curious how effective it was at containing pressure and protecting the shooter from powder gasses when firing. And does it toggle over center as a means of bolting? Nothing else seems evident from the pic. It certainly is well preserved considering its' age, and an unusual example of firearms evolution.


A true sign of mental illness is any gun owner who would vote for an Anti-Gunner like Joe Biden.

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 6,264
Likes: 196
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 6,264
Likes: 196
Incredible that that “first gun” can be in that condition. Even better , it’s a high grade example, too.

Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 175
Likes: 73
AaronN Offline OP
Sidelock
***
OP Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 175
Likes: 73
Originally Posted by Daryl Hallquist
Incredible that that “first gun” can be in that condition. Even better , it’s a high grade example, too.
Also by “first gun” I do mean first model. I can't imagine that too too many were made though.

Originally Posted by keith
I'm totally unfamiliar with this system, and would be interested in knowing more about it. I'm surmising that this gun is a percussion shotgun that is loaded from the breech end.

If this is correct, then I am curious how effective it was at containing pressure and protecting the shooter from powder gasses when firing. And does it toggle over center as a means of bolting? Nothing else seems evident from the pic. It certainly is well preserved considering its' age, and an unusual example of firearms evolution.

How this gun came to be helps describe why this exists. I have an article on the pistol pictured which focuses on it, but it is essentially the exact same story for the shotgun as well:
https://aaronnewcomer.com/casimir-lefaucheux-first-pistol-and-the-death-of-paulys-cartridge-system/

Jean Samuel Pauly patented a breech-loading gun that took fully-self-contained cartridges in 1812.

[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]

The shotshells would have a long paper cartridge that screwed into these bases (they called them rosettes.) And the pistol would take the full-length cartridge here with a round ball on the end. I assume you could also stick that in the shotgun too; it fits fine. The indentation by the flash hole on the base of the cartridge would hold a percussion compound that Pauly made (essentially Forsyth's general recipe.) and be covered in tallow or tape to hold it in.

[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]

The gun had "hammers" that cocked an internal hammer that hit the piston that hit the cartridge. Eventually I will take better pictures of this gun which I also just got in. I need to get it cleaned real well and fix a couple things. It does not have the same condition as the Lefaucheux one and another I have, but is one of the earliest examples made while Pauly still owned the company for the first 3 years.

Some years later, in 1823, the successor of the company, Henri Roux, modified the gun to accept a cartridge with a nipple on the end to take advantage of a new technology that was gaining popularity, percussion caps. He was able to modify existing guns by taking a chunk of the metal out: (left original, right new modification):


[Linked Image from i0.wp.com]
[Linked Image from i0.wp.com]

Then in the end of 1824 Eugene Picherau would take over the company and quickly makes an addition moving it completely to a breech-loading percussion system with external nipple and percussion caps.

[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]
(From a Hotel Drouot Auction)

Picherau adds his special nipple to the patent:

[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]

and what is known as a "blind rosette" which is essentially the same rosette, just without the flash hole that would still screw into the cartridge and help seal the breech:

[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]

Then in 1827 Lefaucheux takes over and adds his addition that simplifies the action a bit and keeps it a percussion system that still takes the blind rosettes or also his cartridge capsules that he would begin to develop which started as just a base to hold the paper cartridge and seal the breech:

[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]

[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]

And that is the gun I showed in the first post!

His next patent would be in 1833 and would be his break-open breech-loading design.

Last edited by AaronN; 05/22/23 05:07 PM.

Clock Guns, Pauly Guns, Pinfire Guns and Pinfire Cartridges
2 members like this: cable, Parabola
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 11,313
Likes: 378
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 11,313
Likes: 378
Aaron, thank you for that detailed explanation of how this system works. I also read the very interesting article you wrote. But it still seems like it must have taken some very careful machining and hand fitting to attain a fairly effective breech seal. I say that because the rosettes appear to be rather thick, so it seems unlikely that they would be as effective in breech sealing as the much thinner modern brass (or steel) shotgun shell heads.

I suppose a less than perfect breech seal would not be any more problematic in the Pauly handguns than the powder gasses escaping from the cylinder gap of a percussion or modern revolver. But it might be more of an issue with a shotgun or rifle where escaping gasses might hit the shooters' face. Of course, you mention that this system was a relatively short lived chapter in the evolution from muzzleloaders to cartridge firearms. Considering that short span of what must have been pretty limited production, it must have been difficult for you to even locate examples to study and share with us. I'm thinking that I could have possibly seen some of these components, and had no idea what they even were. The information on the compressed air ignition system was also very interesting. Great stuff! Thank you very much.


A true sign of mental illness is any gun owner who would vote for an Anti-Gunner like Joe Biden.

Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 175
Likes: 73
AaronN Offline OP
Sidelock
***
OP Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 175
Likes: 73
Also as you noted, these earliest examples were going up against flintlocks and actually one of the biggest selling points in a lot of the early reviews of the Pauly system was the benefit of not having the huge flash and powder from the flintlock ignition.

I think it was just too far ahead of its time though and the ease of a percussion cap was greater than having a liquid/powder priming compound even if you could have 50 of them made up ahead of time and 100% ready to go so it switched to that. You still had the benefit of a paper cartridge rather than loading loose power and shot down the barrel.

And then looking at systems like the Robert breech-loading system which was clearly inspired by this you start to get closer to fully-self-contained cartridges that you didn’t have to hassle much with. And tests between it and the 1833 percussion break-open Lefaucheux generally favored the ease of use of Robert’s cartridge.

A couple years later Lefaucheux’s pinfire system comes around and really revolutionizes everything as now you have a complete package from the manufacturer where you do not have to have a separate primer or priming compound to load into the cartridge or use externally. And this finally made these more expensive cartridges worth it as you removed that extra hassle.


Clock Guns, Pauly Guns, Pinfire Guns and Pinfire Cartridges
1 member likes this: Parabola
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 175
Likes: 73
AaronN Offline OP
Sidelock
***
OP Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 175
Likes: 73
A couple more pictures:

[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]

[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]

[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]


Clock Guns, Pauly Guns, Pinfire Guns and Pinfire Cartridges
1 member likes this: Parabola
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 175
Likes: 73
AaronN Offline OP
Sidelock
***
OP Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 175
Likes: 73
I ended up taking this apart. Here are the marking under the barrel for anyone interested:


[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]

Made in 1830 and I think it is serial number 291

Last edited by AaronN; 07/08/23 12:36 PM.

Clock Guns, Pauly Guns, Pinfire Guns and Pinfire Cartridges

Link Copied to Clipboard

doublegunshop.com home | Welcome | Sponsors & Advertisers | DoubleGun Rack | Doublegun Book Rack

Order or request info | Other Useful Information

Updated every minute of everyday!


Copyright (c) 1993 - 2024 doublegunshop.com. All rights reserved. doublegunshop.com - Bloomfield, NY 14469. USA These materials are provided by doublegunshop.com as a service to its customers and may be used for informational purposes only. doublegunshop.com assumes no responsibility for errors or omissions in these materials. THESE MATERIALS ARE PROVIDED "AS IS" WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EITHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANT-ABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, OR NON-INFRINGEMENT. doublegunshop.com further does not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the information, text, graphics, links or other items contained within these materials. doublegunshop.com shall not be liable for any special, indirect, incidental, or consequential damages, including without limitation, lost revenues or lost profits, which may result from the use of these materials. doublegunshop.com may make changes to these materials, or to the products described therein, at any time without notice. doublegunshop.com makes no commitment to update the information contained herein. This is a public un-moderated forum participate at your own risk.

Note: The posting of Copyrighted material on this forum is prohibited without prior written consent of the Copyright holder. For specifics on Copyright Law and restrictions refer to: http://www.copyright.gov/laws/ - doublegunshop.com will not monitor nor will they be held liable for copyright violations presented on the BBS which is an open and un-moderated public forum.

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
(Release build 20201027)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 7.0.33-0+deb9u11+hw1 Page Time: 0.123s Queries: 39 (0.063s) Memory: 0.8650 MB (Peak: 1.8987 MB) Data Comp: Off Server Time: 2024-03-28 23:14:16 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS