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Lloyd3 Offline OP
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When I use it to search for a specific post from a few years ago, even with the known "title" of the post used, I get useless garbage. What I am I doing wrong?

Last edited by Lloyd3; 05/30/23 11:45 AM.
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I do better using google. Put in "Lloyd3" and the title you're looking for. . .if you use that handle on different web site, add "doublegunshop".


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in the search box, put the terms you are looking for and "site:www.doublegunshop.com/forums/" fand it will find all instances of those terms on that website.


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Think of a search as words not phrases.
So, if you search on a particular topic, or noun, every time that noun was used, the search engine generates a hit.

They might show up chronologically, but not necessarily a what you want.

Because posters are lower volume than topic nouns, it often helps to start with a poster that You remember replying, the less frequent, posters, even better.


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Originally Posted by ClapperZapper
Think of a search as words not phrases.
So, if you search on a particular topic, or noun, every time that noun was used, the search engine generates a hit.

They might show up chronologically, but not necessarily a what you want.

Because posters are lower volume than topic nouns, it often helps to start with a poster that You remember replying, the less frequent, posters, even better.

If you put a phrase in quotes, it will search for that phrase and ignore instances of each word occurring independently. It can be a pretty powerful way to search. If you search for

site:www.doublegunshop.com “For 2 Inch Case Only” (including the quotes)


Google will find all instances of that phrase, while ignoring all posts that contain all 5 words, but not in a single phrase, in that order.


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That’s good advice on how to use Google.

I don’t think everybody leaves the site to do a search on the site.

I have always just clicked on the magnifying glass, and then tweaked my search words.

I don’t know how Lloyd does it, but chances are if he’s using the site search engine, understanding how it works Should benefit him.


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Originally Posted by ClapperZapper
That’s good advice on how to use Google.

I don’t think everybody leaves the site to do a search on the site.

I have always just clicked on the magnifying glass, and then tweaked my search words.

I don’t know how Lloyd does it, but chances are if he’s using the site search engine, understanding how it works Should benefit him.

The quotes will work on the site search engine as well. I'm just not sure that the site's search is really effective. Either way, doublegunshop.com is one of the more challenging sites to search effectively.


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It’s a funny thing, the simplicity of this site, which many lament, is also one of its charms.

My experience has been that every software upgrade loses more than it gains.

A favorite site of mine was bought by a corporate entity, because it is a high-volume site, and lo and behold, the new software upgrade Has essentially eliminated all information more than 10 years old.

For a site that focuses on historical artifacts, that is really sad.


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It helps that this site gets so little traffic. Well managed websites with like HuntTalk, Shotgunworld, Upland Journal are all extremely easy to use, customize, and search for previous information even though they receive orders of magnitude greater volume and visitation. They all handle photos and other media much more easily as well, and track read and unread posts in ways that this place does not. But as long as doublegun continues to decline rather than grow, it can get by with archaic software. Sadly, it will disappear one day, and all that info with it. Notice that old photos are already lost in many instances, and some of those photos were really informative.


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Lloyd3 Offline OP
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I tried with the name of the fellow posting the original information (after finding the reference from a Google search on my cell phone). Even with that name, the date of the posting, and the title....I still couldn't get it to display in the search results. I make no claims about my technical prowess (I'm always asking my wife or 19-year old son how to do things) but shouldn't this be fairly simple?

Just tried it again and it would not go back very far to search in the archived data here, the results are all 2023. Again, am I doing something wrong?

Last edited by Lloyd3; 05/30/23 11:57 AM.
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Allright, tried it again with just the name of the poster this time (Steve Nash). His article was titled "The Pinfire Game gun" and was dated 7/2/20. The search feature only went back to 2022 and filled 4 pages of search results with completely useless information.

It looks like Google is the only option for anything older than 2-years.

Last edited by Lloyd3; 05/30/23 01:31 PM.
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Originally Posted by ClapperZapper
It’s a funny thing, the simplicity of this site, which many lament, is also one of its charms.

My experience has been that every software upgrade loses more than it gains.

I tend to agree with CZ here. But really, there aren't all that many who "lament" the simplicity of this site. Actually, the laments come mostly from one whining crybaby who apparently is not as intelligent as he wants us to believe. He despises this website, yet returns every day for more self-abuse and torture. An army of shrinks couldn't fix him.

He whines about the difficulty of posting photos here. But it is so quick and easy that a small child could do it. Same with the search function. I never had a problem finding anything here that I was able to recall. In fact, it really bothered the crap out of some not so honest folks here that I was always able to easily QUOTE things they said in the past, and later denied. We had one now deceased Canadian Liberal here who was frequently able to deny his own words, even if I provided an unedited quote along with the date he made it, and the post number.

Lloyd, I don't know specifically what you may be searching for in that Pinfire Game Gun thread, but it appears that your difficulties might be due to the great length of the thread. While it was not as long as War and Peace or the fictional account of E.M. Reilly, it did go on for years. It seems a general search is limited to 200 results, so if you want something further back in time, you will have to use the Advanced Search option, and try an older date range.


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I have few problems finding what I want using the "Search" function. I have found that the more "narrow" my search terms the less debris I have to wade through. Often a specific word, or two, that was used in that post, works like a charm to bring it back. If you can narrow it way down it will often bring back posts from many years ago. You just have to work within the parameter of the 200.

It's very seldom that I do a search as broad as using someone's username. Occasionally I will, but I accept that I will be sifting through as many as 200 posts to find what I'm hunting for, and also that the post I'm trying to find may be well past the 200 number back, and won't show up. Being very specific is the key. But, that's the case in ANY search function. This site is no different in that regard, IMO.


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I search here, all the time. The one thing that is consistent is that I think an item will be 2-4 years into the past, and it is more like a decade.

Getting old, sucks.

Best,
Ted

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Lloyd3 Offline OP
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If a "mea culpa" is needed here, then so be it. I'll try the advanced search next time. Another challenge that I may be running into up here is bandwidth in this far-north enclave I've been in for the last few days. It's been very spotty tonight, for sure.

It makes more sense to me that this was operator error on my part & I'll try harder next time.

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keep it simple and keep it safe...
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It clearly worked for you Ed. Thank you for that.

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welcome...

trick is, not to expect it to happen in one fell swoop...

do keyword search, to find clues, which may lead to your goal...


keep it simple and keep it safe...
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Originally Posted by BrentD, Prof
It helps that this site gets so little traffic. Well managed websites with like HuntTalk, Shotgunworld, Upland Journal are all extremely easy to use, customize, and search for previous information even though they receive orders of magnitude greater volume and visitation. They all handle photos and other media much more easily as well, and track read and unread posts in ways that this place does not. But as long as doublegun continues to decline rather than grow, it can get by with archaic software. Sadly, it will disappear one day, and all that info with it. Notice that old photos are already lost in many instances, and some of those photos were really informative.
Why not get an ice cold six pack of vinegar and water, take a day or ten, and copy old posts? Just kidding, best ever thoughts.

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Glad to see the pinfire thread is still being looked at, Ed.

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Mr. Nash:

It very much is. I'd somehow remembered the photograph of your lovely 1864 Lancaster (composed with a ruffed grouse) and your comment about hunting birds with it as I'd recently procured a circa 1866 backaction Lang that I'm hoping to use similarly. A very early centerfire qun with "laminated steel" barrels and an unusual sidelever. The guns preceding it were likely all pinfires, so I was hoping for some insight into the era. Looking forward to the Fall this year with even-more enthusiasm than normal (if that's even possible).

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

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Lloyd, I'm wondering if your very fine (look at how sleek that stock is) Lang is in fact an original center fire. It looks like it might be a modified pin-fire. The key will be the tops of the barrel chambers.

In my investigation of Reilly guns (and there are 608 serial numbered and now dated guns in the database) center-fire shotguns did not really appear until the primers invented almost simultaneously by American Berdan in Feb 1866 and UK Boxer in October 1866. And center-fire shotguns did not supplant pin-fires in numbers (of extant guns) until 1872-73. Stephen is obviously the expert but these are observations from the peanut gallery. smile

Gene

For comparison, here is the earliest known Reilly original center-fire shotgun SN 14115 from my dating chart early 1866:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

And this is not unusual - boat-loads of pin-fires were changed over/upgraded. Here is a gun which I think is similar to yours - written about numerous times over 20 years by Terry Weiland in various magazine articles. He never would give me the serial number but I managed to resurrect it - I think - or a facsimile or it to be close enough: SN 14281 - which dates to 1866. And I concluded that after all the transformations it might have been originally a pin-fire.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Last edited by Argo44; 06/02/23 10:12 PM.

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Lloyd3 Offline OP
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Gene: I had suspected that it might originally have been a pinfire as well, but neither the barrels nor the breachface give indications of ever being modified (I'd actually love it if it had been converted or even a duel-fire system, as I truly-admire the look of pinfire hammers!). Those are clearly pinfire-era fences and it certainly is early enough but... it appears to be what it is now. I'm having it bent slightly back to neutral and getting a small spring made for that sidelever system. I've also having the tubes cleaned up a little (they were evidently safe, but looked a bit too-gnarly in the breech section for my tastes). Looking forward to trying it out sometime in the next few weeks. It's got a slim wrist and a lively feel for it's gauge, weighing-in at 6lbs9 w/those 30-inch tubes. It won't likely be much of a target gun but... it should serve well-enough for that (at least occasionally). My big hope is for use on game. Those non-rebounding locks make both hammers fairly-easy to sweep to full from half-cock.

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Thanks Lloyd and I'd imagine it would point beautifully. My research was based on photos, a lot based on fences, and obviously in the 1860's, a dynamic time in UK gunsmithing, things changed month by month. Unfortunately there just are not enough photos to check out every "transition gun." And the experts who handle guns every day don't seem to write about these things. Yours might be an analysis changer. Thanks again and it looks to be something special to handle.

We would appreciate more photos of this side-lever. Quite interesting.

Last edited by Argo44; 06/02/23 10:03 PM.

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Gene: When I get it back I'd be happy to oblige.

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And for Stephen Nash - your pin-fire line should be book-marked.


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Lloyd, that Lang is a real beauty. Crudgington & Baker (Vol. 1) illustrate a Lang gun with the provisional patent No. 1785 of 1867, that was made as a central fire gun. I think yours might have started as a pin-fire from the shaping of the fences, but anything is possible; sometimes the signs of a conversion are devilishly hard to spot. Also, Lang could have made new barrels for it, if he converted it. In gunmaking in the 1860s, it is challenging to be definite about anything.

Lovely engraving, great condition. You are going to have a lot of fun with that one. Very unusual.

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Studying page 126 of C&B's book is pretty illuminating. The later centerfire varient is probably the sidelever mechanism mine employs, but the fences are very different (sounds bad but... it has "balls" & a cove around the nipples). The earlier pinfire gun has a somewhat different sidelever system but employs the same, more-abrupt, standing breach and thin fences. Mine falls somewhere in the middle I suppose. From reading into said book, my lock-up would likely be the later swing-arm design, but when the authors discuss it in the next chapter it is unclear as who designed it and when. It does seem likely that my gun started life as a pinfire but.....I just couldn't tell from my initial examinations of it. I should have it in hand in a week or two and I'll go from there.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

The serial number on this gun is 3093, which in the Lang serial number record clearly dates it to 1866.

Last edited by Lloyd3; 06/04/23 03:53 PM. Reason: more information added
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[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

That long top tang is a pinfire-era feature as well, but I see nothing else here to clue me in to any modification of the gun. The standing breech is noticeably pitted from digesting lots of black powder shells (& their mercuric primers), as was the the first foot of the barrel walls. If I'm missing something here, please... do let me know.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Do those nipples (and their placement) provide any clue? That design also looks to be a later type than what I've seen on other early guns (certainly different from the ones on center-fire gun sn 3359, and illustrated on page 126 of C&Bs book, included above), and... I'm fairly sure the hammers are replacements as well (the screws look like they came from a hardware store...I may need to deal with that).

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

The old case fits pretty good (it certainly pays to have friends in the fine gun-world), eh? It even came with a period correct(?) cleaning jag. I need to clean the case up a bit and do a few repairs, and I even have a period-correct (& address-correct) Joseph Lang & Sons label for it now. This old girl is going to be lots of fun and...I won't have much tied-up in it (which also satisfies my ever-frugal Scottish-nature).

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

I just checked and Kirby still has this gun up on his webpage. I looked at this unit for well-over a year before finally buying it (from our conversation, I suspect he'd had several refusals/returns on it before my purchase of it, as the price was steadily going down that whole time). His photography is really, very complete and is quite good (and can be blown-up on his webpage very nicely. I stared at it [& many others there] for a very-long time before doing the deal). I'd think that for most folks, this gun is simply too-unconventional (bar-actions & top-levers are far-more comfortable investments), but... for me (and my admittedly-eccentric tastes), this one was exactly what I was looking for. TIme will tell, of-course.

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Very nice indeed, I'm enjoying the additional pictures. I'm still of the opinion that it started as a pin-fire, until I can be convinced otherwise. I'm suspicious of the two areas marked in the image below, which would have had metal added to close the pin holes. The joining might not be visible without a 10x or 20x magnifying loupe, and good light. The band of engraving on the barrels might have been added to further disguise the added metal work.

Of course, that would mean the extractor was added to the barrels at the time that firing pin assemblies were drilled, which in turn means the lug on the action bar was added to work the extractor. A big job in my mind, but probably not to a gunmaker back in the day.

Anyway, this is where I would look first:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

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Mr. Nash: I can't blow-up my photography to a greater magnification than I already have, but...one can still increase (massively!) the magnification of the photography on Kirby Hoyt's webpage and...when you go to the photographs on his webpage showing the top of this gun, there it is. Very clearly on the left tube (the right tube is better matched & obscured by engraving) are the seams of the replaced metal that filled those pinfire-ignition holes. Very artfully done, but clearly still there. This gun is/was a pinfire first!

Thank you for that insight! The next question that comes to my mind is...could one fit dual-fire hammers to it? That would be pretty darn neat.

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Talk about timing, just read an article online from the Vintage Guns Journal, dated November 10 of 2021 (by Diggory Hadoke?) about a Lang pinfire conversion, titled "Lang Game Changer". The article is about a forward-facing underlever gun built in 1863. That gun is strikingly similar to my current project (non-rebounding locks, same address on rib, horn butt, etc.). Converted (almost identically, by Lang's perhaps?) from pinfire & with a single bite, it's SN is 2729 and the markings on the barrel flats for this one are in an almost-legible script (mine aren't) saying "Proved and furnished by...". Much like on mine, that statement is unfinished. The author speculates that they were provided by E. C. Hodges, who reportedly had a very close business relationship with Joseph Lang at that time. Lang was evidently married to a Purdey daughter (Eliza)? The Prince of Wales also had one just like it, evidently (Lang SN 2725)? A small and slightly incestuous world back then, eh? In the article, Mr. Haydoke went on to shoot the gun successfully on driven pheasants, so... maybe I'm not too-far off course?

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

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Very interesting and it does correlate. E.C. Hodges of course was the Englishman who first made a Lefauchaeux-type center break breech loader as an apprentice to Lang in circa 1852 after the 1851 Crystal Palace world's fair. He offered the complete gun to Lang; Lang dithered and hemmed and hawed; The English gun fraternity was very conservative; but about 1853 Lang bought Hodges' gun and set about reverse engineering it. By January 1854 he had a commercial variant. And the rest is history.

Hodges never said where he got the barrels and lumps and suspicion is strong that all of that came from Liège including all of Lang's early stuff. Hodges went on to have a successful career making center-break actions for top level London gun-makers. If he made the action, however, his name usually is on it.

(All this is addressed in the Reilly history by the way).

*23 1852-56: Break Action, Pin-Fire Guns in UK., PART 1, Hodges & Lang

This is not a detailed recounting of how Lefauceaux’s break-action pin-fire breech-loader conquered the UK and changed gun history. However, the facts must be reviewed in brief so that Reilly’s part in it can be understood.

Castor Lefaucheaux took out a patent for a break action gun in France in 1836. Several of these guns made their way to the UK over the years but were generally ignored or regarded as curiosities. However, at the 1851 Crystal Palace Exposition, Lefaucheaux showed a single barrel pin-fire center-break gun.*23a It created a lot of interest. Lefaucheaux did not take out a patent on the design in UK so it was free for the taking. The gun was rediculed by many of the UK gun establishment, in particular William Greener (senior), who called it a “French crutch gun.”

However, a young 18 year old apprentice gunsmith named Edward Charles Hodges*23b especially took notice. Following the closing of the fair, he embarked on a project to build a copy of the gun, which after some time was completed, probably one speculates in late 1852. It Is not known how he did this; did he buy a Lefaucheux (unlikely) or did he handle the gun and carefully take measurements and sketches? He could not have made the barrels himself so did he buy the barrels and lumps from Liège? There is no information on when Hodges completed his trial gun; neither he nor his sons ever commented. But, over the following few months he worked to convince Joseph Lang to buy his gun and to make and sell versions of it.

Joseph Lang had started out in the 1820’s essentially selling guns Joseph Manton sent to him on consignment. When Manton went bankrupt in 1826, Lang bought his left-over stock, barrel borers etc. For the next 25 years he made guns at 7 Haymarket Street, London.*23c By 1830 he had created a 28 yard shooting gallery in a neighboring building, which became well known, and even advertised access to two billards tables for his customers.*23d

In 1852 he moved his shop to 22 Cockspur Street where the company remained until 1874.*23e Joseph Lang died in 1869 and his firm was subsequently run by his son. Probably in 1853 after his move Lang finally succumbed to Hodges’ entreaties, bought Hodges' gun, and began working on the center-break concept. By early 1854 he had a working gun ready for sale which followed pretty much the design of Lefaucheaux’s original gun although beefing up parts of it. He also tried to make it look as much like a percussion gun as possible, with wooden fore-end, etc., no doubt thinking that familiarity in looks would help its acceptance. His gun, however, used one bite on the lump, where Lefaucheaux’s original concept used two. (Steve Nash)

Note: The original Lang guns apparently did not have forcing cones in front of the breech following Lefaucheaux examples; British gunmakers soon changed this.*23f In addition per comments in the UK press there was the distinct possibility/probablity that Lang early on was using Liège made barrels, perhaps with lumps, and that this continued into 1856-57. This is circumstantial evidence that Hodges had followed the same route.

In a pamphlet published in January 1857 to hawk the pin-fire, Lang wrote that he had been shooting break action pin-fires for three years.*23g This would seem to indicate that he began shooting his own breech0-loading guns in early 1854, which is as good a guess for the date of his first pin-fire gun as any and also accepted by pin-fire scholar Stephen Nash. (The earliest extant datable Lang pin-fire is from 1858. One well-known British gunsmith has stated that he believes he may be able to locate two Lang pin-fire center-break guns with bills of sale dated to 1854. However, no documentation has been forthcoming.)

Lang continued to refine his gun and in 1855 he showed it at the Paris Exposition Universelle and won a gold medal for “excellence of construction.”*23h Interestingly, from 1854-1856 no Lang commercial advertisements for the pin-fire can be found, although the gun was discussed regularly in "The Field."*23i Nevertheless, a storm of controversy, a print “flame war,” erupted in the British press over the concept with a very conservative group of gun owners adamantly maintaining that the “crutch gun” could not stand up to strong charges of British powder with a few equally strong willed upper-class users touting its convenience, safety and general viability.*23j

Note: Lang later comes across as insufferably arrogant; Witness his 1) 1858 advertisements labeling others' center-break guns as "rubbish"*23k; and, his 2) border-line insulting exchange in June 1859 with the editor of "The Field" over whether he was going to submit guns for the July 1859 "The Field" breech-loaders vs muzzle loaders trial. "I told you that nothing should induce me to have my name mixed up in such a farce."*23l

Last edited by Argo44; 06/10/23 10:44 PM.

Baluch are not Brahui, Brahui are Baluch
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And, not one of the gunmakers in London, even Mr. Purdey, would have been considered as "gentlemen." The English class system was ornate, intricate and deadly.

Last edited by Argo44; 06/10/23 11:10 PM.

Baluch are not Brahui, Brahui are Baluch
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It may be that British Royalty were less worried about mingling with people from “trade” than the rest of the upper crust.

Edward VII was fond of racing in the yacht owned by Lipton, the tea magnate, leading to Kaiser Bill’s acid enquiry if he was again “off sailing with his grocer?”

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