doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Two inch Twelve gauge

Preacher, I've been following this thread, but have not posted anything because I have no personal experience with either the Two Inch 12 Gauge guns, or reloading for them. I think it might be interesting to own and hunt with one, even though I own a number of very svelt smallbore doubles that are under or just over 6 lbs.

So I'm left wondering... do you actually own any Two Inch 12 Gauge guns, and have you done any actual reloading for them??? I ask this because you are the second most prolific poster in this Thread with 35 posts... second only to the nutty professor who recently bought a Two Inch 12 gauge gun, and is just starting to reload for it. He hates this forum and thinks it is a cybersecurity risk, but made 41 posts in this Thread, so I guess maybe his newfound enthusiasm has overcome his oft-stated disgust and fears.

It just seems like odd behavior, when contrasted with GLS, who has actually owned and hunted with these little 12's for some time, and obviously reloads to feed them. GLS has shared his enjoyment with the short 12's for years now. He has only 20 posts in this Thread. And Recoil Rob is another guy with bona-fide experience and ownership, yet he has only 9 posts on this subject.

So do you own several of these light little guns, and simply kept it to yourself??? Did you work with Borderbill in load development for them? How did you modify your reloading presses to load Two Inch shells? I'm just curious about what motivates people to attempt to display expertise in things where they have little to no actual experience. It reminds me of some guys I know who have Harley-Davidson tatoos, Harley jackets, Harley tee-shirts, Harley wallets on chains, Harley bandanas, etc., and can spout off Harley dates of manufacture, engine displacement, specifications, and just seem like real Harley-Davidson experts. Yet they have never owned a Harley-Davidson motorcycle. Since you have also acted like you know something about psychology and human behavior, I thought perhaps you could provide some insight into what motivates people to try to be things that they are not.

Drew has connections in the gun world that I don’t have and has been invaluable in finding resources relevant to service pressure loads that are possibly in play with these two inch twelves. I’ve been in touch with him over the last few years in private correspondence. He also shoots with borderbill on occasion. While I have a couple of satisfactory recipes, they rely on plastic gas seals. I’ve had a three season saga of trying to develop all fiber wads for my 2” 12 ga. guns. Bill in AZ , Brent in IA and I have been sharing information in trying to perfect a technique for consistent, low pressure loads for our guns. I have yet to pressure test the loads, but have recently come up with a consistent velocity load according to my ProChrono Digital. My previous results were all over the speed range which initially caused me to blame my Chrono. I dispelled that notion by shooting factory loads which were as advertised. Another man gave me a tip that when he was professionally testing pressures and velocity in fiber loads, two nitro cards were better than one most likely due to a tipping of a single NC releasing gases unevenly. Stack height is important. The two nitro card technique is also emphasized in Lyman #39 (1953) which gave 5 scenarios of stack height and wad combinations. Of the 5 possibilities we only have room for the 2 NC and one 3/8" fiber wad which was next to the last in recommendation. My initial theory was that seating pressure wasn’t important with modern powders. However, seating pressure was more than just the compaction of powder. Modern plastic wads are cupped which allows gases to push against the sides, effectively sealing against hull, chamber, forcing cone and barrels minimizing the uneven escape of gases which affects velocity consistency. Seating pressure isn’t important in modern wads. Seventy years ago in Lyman #39, it discussed seating pressures with fiber wads of various powders including Red Dot (60 lbs. in one recipe) which is hardly obsolete. I’ll get back to seating pressure momentarily. I had success with consistent velocity using waxed cardboard cupped wads which I made with a hobby shop press which is depicted earlier in this thread.
However, the making of the wads and insertion into a hull can be tedious. Not so much a problem making a pocket full of shells for an armed walk in the quail and woodcock woods, but time consuming nonetheless. I had a Captain Obvious “Eureka” moment recently when I watched a YT video of hydraulic compression of common objects. Not only did the material compress downward, but also spread outwards. With 60 lbs. of pressure, a fiber wad in a cylinder (hull) not only compresses vertically, but pressure spreads the fiber wad to the sides, providing a tighter seal than just sitting there with crimping pressure alone. No doubt once the 60 lb. pressure is released, there is some spring back, but nowhere as near the spring back as with a tempered spring. There is remaining side pressure held in check with final crimping. I also experimented with coating .125” nitro cards in honey beeswax. I make thin puddles on a piece of aluminum foil in a skillet. Not as messy as dipping in a wax pot. With the combined waxed NC and 60 lbs. pressure, I was able to obtain consistent velocity for the first time. Without the waxed NC, but with 60 lbs. seating pressure, velocity wasn’t as consistent, but borderline usable for my purposes. It’s easy enough to wax the NC so I’ll continue to do so. The wax doesn’t provide protection against powder or lead fouling, but it seems to provide additional sealing. I decided to experiment with American Select as that’s what Brent and I have in abundance. American Select is used in a published low pressure load for vintage guns in longer shells. That was our starting point. Brent’s progress with lube was encouraging, but we both have concerns about potential powder contamination through grease migration. With black powder’s bulkier loads, not so much a problem, but with smaller nitro powder loads, there might be a potential problem. There are storage work “arounds” such as storing and carrying shells with crimp down, primer up. Once I develop a better ¾ oz. load’s consistency in velocity, I’ll send the 7/8 oz. load and 3/4 oz. load off for pressure testing. I saw no point in pressure testing before I attained consistent velocity. I shoot the rounds out of a modern firearm to avoid stress on the old doubles. I chrono my rounds at the manual’s recommended 5’ separation distance and pay attention to the recommendation to remove screens and avoid bright sunshine skies. I either shoot under cloudy conditions or in the shade of a building with an unobstructed view of the sky as recommended in the manual. Gil

2" Alex Martin proved for 1 1/8 oz. and with 'JA' on the barrel.
Unfortunately no pic of the boxes
https://www.gunsamerica.com/9101274...s-of-Shells-Made-in-Glasgow-Scotland.htm



https://www.gunsinternational.com/g...e--12-gauge-2-inch-.cfm?gun_id=101593141

Gil, thank you very much for helping to make my point about the value of information from people who have actual real world experience with reloading and shooting the Two Inch 12, and various other topics such as metallurgy or Damascus barrels, versus those who habitually parrot what they read or see elsewhere. I seriously respect and appreciate the work and perseverance you have demonstrated in your load development, and your willingness to share it. Parrots and pretenders... not so much.

I just see a stark contrast between what you just posted, and the strange behavior of repetitive internet forum posts by those with little to no actual experience. Certainly you recall one former prominent poster who almost daily provided his "expertise" about all manner of doubles... yet he didn't even own a single sxs shotgun. Then there was another poser and liberal left fraud who frequently bragged about his "Award Winning Wines" and obviously imaginary personal relationships with famous and influential people. It turned out he was not a vintner, but merely the smallest grower who supplied grapes to an actual winery that bought grapes from his one acre vinyard. Another guy here imagines and makes unfounded assumptions that E.M. Reilly employed 300 or more gunmakers, yet loses his shit when pressed to provide actual proof. If you dare to question him, he will call you a Troll and other unflattering names.... while preaching about incivility. Then there are so-called gunsmith's who post images of work they "farmed-out" to others... without attribution to the actual craftsman involved. Welcome to the Internet, where anyone can pretend to be something they are not. I see such behavior as phoniness, and possibly intentionally deceptive. That's why I asked the Preacher to use his psychologist internet persona to explain it to me.

I'm not saying you couldn't learn something about Harley Davidson motorcycles from one of those wannabe bikers who collects catalogs, tee shirts, tattoos, or other regalia, I'm equally sure you could learn something about Damascus barrels from a guy who collects and provides tons of copy-and-paste research on the subject, yet admits to owing only one Damascus barreled L.C. Smith OO grade. I was just curious about why some people work so hard to project an air of expertise with subjects where they have little to zero actual experience, and get really pissed if you point that fact out.

And I am equally confused why the nutty professor would make 40 posts in any Thread on any Forum that he truely felt represented a cyber-threat. Is that simply crazy???... or is it a dishonest and hypocritical excuse to denigrate Dave Weber, and to justify a one man campaign to defund his forum???

S&W strikes again. In speaking with a knowledgeable gunsmith earlier this year about the Poulin auction last year that had twenty 2' twelves, including two Scottish Dicksons, he corrected me and said they were S&W's rebadged as Dicksons, and that only a handful of 2" 12s were made by Dickson and he had one of them. Gil

Another Skimin and Wood. That's a very nice gun, Drew. Price is maybe a little high, but reasonable give some of the features.

Midland Gun 2 incher. Leaving for Texas tmrw.

The date code looks to be AB = 1950

Here are the wad stack recommendations from 70 years ago in Lyman #39. I believe Morris Baker would dispute lack of NC cards and using only wads in loads. His 2" 12 ga. rounds in RST's do just that. Gil

Fiber cushion wads are tricky. I used 2 lubed cushion wads and no nitro card at all and created a load that tested at over 18,000 psi (average "only" 13,250 psi) while the same powder charge with 2 unlined nitro and one unused fiber wads tested at 5200 psi and only 660 fps.

Nitro wads, fiber wads, lube, and seating pressure are all interacting. In addition, the results from different makers of fiber wads have been wildly different. We have a lot to relearn about loading fiber wads. It's sort of like paper patched bullets all over again.