doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion German & Austrian Sporting Guns @ doublegunshop.com Carl Gründig Dresden-Doppelbüchse - 9X61R-Hunting

Interesting DR peddled by Carl Gründig of Dresden in what is given as 35 WCF that passed thru the Zella - Mehlis proof facility in August 1914. 9X61R Hunting was one Austrian variation that was available @ the time but is quite rare. It was a straight wall case based on the 360 BPE.

https://doublegunshop.com/forums/ub...ds=firebombed&Search=true#Post168345
Old 2009 thread......






A&D Body Action, pinned, with interesting Z-M Nitro stamp typically reserved for scatterguns post 1911 in Z-M.








The Krupp tubes were sourced from Syndicat Liégeois pour la Fabrication des Armes de Guerre à Herstal
Karl probably cobbled together a Gesteck as cheap as possible and then utilized the cheaper Z-M labour to complete the task.




Bill should be along shortly with comments

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

This rifle came to me as a 35 WCF. That it started out in another caliber never occurred to me, and I'd never heard of the one Raimey mentions. It's the first German double I've encountered with chopper lump barrels. I especially like the three little piggies on the receiver. The dog retrieving a fox is a surprise. Accuracy and regulation are very good. I'm looking forward to hunting with it this fall. Thanks, Raimey, for the posting and your information.

I believe 35 Winchester CF is more likely the correct caliber than 9X61R Hunting. For a while, the 35 Win. enjoyed a fair amount of popularity with German/European hunters so was a known cartridge. It fits pretty well the proof data shown by the markings on the rifle. The bore diameter is shown as 8.7mm, if it had been 8.8 or 8.9 mm I would have considered a 9.3 mm nominal cartridge. The rifle is marked for a 16.2-gram copper jacketed bullet, which closely fits the 35 Win. also. While not determinative, that it has a fairly modern looking scope mounted is indicative of being used more recently than 1914, which is shown by "Dixon" as the last year 9x61R Hunting ammo was made. All this is a guess and if "Bill's" comments include dimensions from a chamber cast, the actual cartridge can be determined. An old friend made 35 Win. cases from 9.3x74R cases for his Mod. 95 Win. It was a little trouble, but good cases resulted and together with availability of .358" bullets ammo shouldn't be much of a problem. BTY this is a very nice rifle.
Mike

Mike, The rifle came to me with 35 WCF dies and brass, and they work just as they should. Brass is a bit hard to find, but I had some on hand too since I have another rifle in this chambering. Buffalo Arms used to have 35 WCF brass made from Krag cases, but their source must have dried up. I hope this is the original caliber, but it really doesn't make much difference. I'm happy withe way it works. The scope is a 21/2x Lyman All American which a previous owner had fitted. Except for being American, it's about ideal for this sort of rifle. Thanks for your comments. Bill

Yes Ford, Bill gives that the DR now readily accepts 35 WCF.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Bill,
It wasn't until the 1939 proof law that the Germans were required to mark their guns with the commonly used name of the cartridge it used, and until then many of them were not so marked. The proof markings were not intended to represent the nominal cartridge. Indeed, there are cases where two or more different nominal calibered rifles carry the same proof marks. Based on my previous comments and now your new information that the rifle came to you with 35 Win. dies and cases, there is no doubt in my mind that the rifle was originally chambered for the 35 Win. cartridge. A metric designation for 35 Win. would be 9x61R, which would represent the same cartridge, not a similar one. Since my friend made cases from 9.3x74R cases, new Japanese made Win. mod 95 rifles have been available chambered for 405 Win. To support these rifles, 405 Win. ammo and cases have recently been manufactured. The 405 Win. cases would be a better donor case to make 35 Win. than 9.3x74R, assuming you don't already have a quantity of the 9.3 cases "on hand". I want to reiterate that I think this is a very nice and useful rifle and you are lucky to have it.
Mike

Mike, Thanks again for your help here. I think I have enough cases for now. It's not a caliber for casual plinking, and so I won't be wearing cases out very fast. I do feel lucky to have found this rifle and enjoy it a lot. My other 35WCF is a Shelhamer Farquaharson which is also a nice piece. I've hunted some with the single shot. PS: I know what you mean about being old. I'm 82, and I've come to feel that if it's not one damned thing after another, it's the same damned thing over and over. Best regards, Bill

Bill,
"it's the same thing over and over again", I never thought of it like that, I agree with you.
Mike