doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion German & Austrian Sporting Guns @ doublegunshop.com Proof Marks on Franz Kettner o/u

Hi all. I am new here, please forgive any formatting or etiquette anomalies.I just bought a 16 gauge over .410 Franz Kettner Shotgun. A bit of an oddity, but it is a pretty little thing. I can't really make any sense of the proof marks, however. It seems to be proofed for several types of bullets. Was this gun intended for some types of slugs back in the day? (I think the day was 1926--there is a "3/26" stamped on one barrel).

[img]https://imgur.com/zwLbU5q[/img]
[img]https://imgur.com/9m12fn9[/img]
[img]https://imgur.com/8Tq5OZx[/img]
[img]https://imgur.com/X6BKLpb[/img]

It is a Kerner-Anson platform that was probably a 16 over something that was bored out to 0.410" The stamp of >>16X410<< is a odd stamp more than likely applied in the U.S. of A. There should be additional marks to ID the original kalibre.

Yes, March of 1926 could be the date of proof.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

The lower tube, which I assume is now 0.410", was for a solid projectile of 16 grammes and more than likely was rifled when it passed thru the Suhl Proof facility.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Thank you, that makes sense. And thanks for posting the pictures, I could not figure out how to do it directly.

What type Cast steel are the tubes? Too, are there any marks from the lug up to the >>*16X410*<<?? Or were the marks worked off???

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

The tube mechanic / barrel knitter, etc. that applied the script >>E.W.<< for complementation as well as liability might have been an E. Wagner, Emil/Ernst Werner but may have been an Ernst or Ewald Wolf?


Any stamps on the water-table / frame?

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Ellenbr: Thank you for all the information, I really appreciate your interest in this. I will try to get more pictures up later today, but the receiver is marked with crowned U. The 16 gauge barrel say Flusstahl Krupp Essen. The .410 barrell says Gusstahl Krupp Essen. The picture with the circled 16 is the watertable. There is also a Nitro mark on the 16 gauge barrel.

The 16 in a circle means it was proofed with a !6 ga. 65mm( 2 1/2-2 9/16" chamber), the 16/1 is the bore diameter ahead of the chamber (this translates to 16.99mm), as expressed in gauge measurement. The crown U is the mark for the View Proof, which is a detailed inspection, including verification of measurements, after firing the proof load. The Crown S means it was proofed for the use of shot. The crown W means the shot barrel is choked, but the amount of constriction is not known (usually pretty tight). It was already stated that the rifle barrel was proofed with a 16 gram bullet. The St.MG means that bullet had a steel jacket. The crown G on the rifle barrel means it was proofed for a single projectile(bullet). There was a class of rifle cartridges that were provided in various case lengths that had cases near enough the size of 410 cartridges that metal 410 mases are sometimes used to handload them. Also, 410 shells are often fired in these rifles because the owners tried different shells/cartridges until they found something that would fit into the chamber. I believe it would be worth your time to have someone examine it closely to determine if it has been converted or if it was only marked as a 410 by mistake. You should see if you can tell if there are any other numbers ahead of the 3/26, if so they would represent the bore (not groove or bullet) diameter. In 1928 the bore diameter would be shown in mm and if there is a fraction a , instead of a . would separate the numbers. Fluss Stahl means fluid steel and Guss Stahl means cast steel, there is not much difference.
Mike

True there isn't a lot of difference between Gußstahl & Flußstahl but forward of the 1st Great Disagreement in Europe(WWI), A lower cast steel tube is odd.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse