doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion German & Austrian Sporting Guns @ doublegunshop.com Proof Marks on Franz Kettner o/u

Hi all. I am new here, please forgive any formatting or etiquette anomalies.I just bought a 16 gauge over .410 Franz Kettner Shotgun. A bit of an oddity, but it is a pretty little thing. I can't really make any sense of the proof marks, however. It seems to be proofed for several types of bullets. Was this gun intended for some types of slugs back in the day? (I think the day was 1926--there is a "3/26" stamped on one barrel).

[img]https://imgur.com/zwLbU5q[/img]
[img]https://imgur.com/9m12fn9[/img]
[img]https://imgur.com/8Tq5OZx[/img]
[img]https://imgur.com/X6BKLpb[/img]

It is a Kerner-Anson platform that was probably a 16 over something that was bored out to 0.410" The stamp of >>16X410<< is a odd stamp more than likely applied in the U.S. of A. There should be additional marks to ID the original kalibre.

Yes, March of 1926 could be the date of proof.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

The lower tube, which I assume is now 0.410", was for a solid projectile of 16 grammes and more than likely was rifled when it passed thru the Suhl Proof facility.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Thank you, that makes sense. And thanks for posting the pictures, I could not figure out how to do it directly.

What type Cast steel are the tubes? Too, are there any marks from the lug up to the >>*16X410*<<?? Or were the marks worked off???

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

The tube mechanic / barrel knitter, etc. that applied the script >>E.W.<< for complementation as well as liability might have been an E. Wagner, Emil/Ernst Werner but may have been an Ernst or Ewald Wolf?


Any stamps on the water-table / frame?

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Ellenbr: Thank you for all the information, I really appreciate your interest in this. I will try to get more pictures up later today, but the receiver is marked with crowned U. The 16 gauge barrel say Flusstahl Krupp Essen. The .410 barrell says Gusstahl Krupp Essen. The picture with the circled 16 is the watertable. There is also a Nitro mark on the 16 gauge barrel.

The 16 in a circle means it was proofed with a !6 ga. 65mm( 2 1/2-2 9/16" chamber), the 16/1 is the bore diameter ahead of the chamber (this translates to 16.99mm), as expressed in gauge measurement. The crown U is the mark for the View Proof, which is a detailed inspection, including verification of measurements, after firing the proof load. The Crown S means it was proofed for the use of shot. The crown W means the shot barrel is choked, but the amount of constriction is not known (usually pretty tight). It was already stated that the rifle barrel was proofed with a 16 gram bullet. The St.MG means that bullet had a steel jacket. The crown G on the rifle barrel means it was proofed for a single projectile(bullet). There was a class of rifle cartridges that were provided in various case lengths that had cases near enough the size of 410 cartridges that metal 410 mases are sometimes used to handload them. Also, 410 shells are often fired in these rifles because the owners tried different shells/cartridges until they found something that would fit into the chamber. I believe it would be worth your time to have someone examine it closely to determine if it has been converted or if it was only marked as a 410 by mistake. You should see if you can tell if there are any other numbers ahead of the 3/26, if so they would represent the bore (not groove or bullet) diameter. In 1928 the bore diameter would be shown in mm and if there is a fraction a , instead of a . would separate the numbers. Fluss Stahl means fluid steel and Guss Stahl means cast steel, there is not much difference.
Mike

True there isn't a lot of difference between Gußstahl & Flußstahl but forward of the 1st Great Disagreement in Europe(WWI), A lower cast steel tube is odd.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

I still can't figure out how to post pictures directly, but here are more photographs of the various proofmarks including the marks on the receiver:https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/12Ld1C6_t8ervXIjKbg-_dfhgT8ByIeRf?usp=sharing
Der Ami, I doubt it was marked .410 by mistake. The proofmarks indicate that the barrel was rifled originally, and it most definitely is not now. Plus the stars on either side of the "16 x 410" definitely do not have a Germanic look to them. So I am going with Ellenbr's theory that it was originally meant for a rifle cartridge and was bored out sometime by a USAnian gunsmith. Thank you all for sharing your knowledge.

If you could, pleasure us with a foto of the standing breech so we can see the strikers. I would say the top one will be bushed & disk set and nothing on the lower?

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Too, off the cuff, the 16 gramme bullet would seem to pair w/ the 9,3X74R. I have looked closely @ the lower tube and evidently the marks were worked off for the kalibre. I would think that if it were 0.410" it would be marked 13mm(????) or similar and would wear the Nitro stamp.

I wonder how the 9,3X74R dims and the 0.410" dims compare?

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Lots of Gold Washed components and I would expect it was a game getter with a formidable kalibre on the lower tube and not 0.410"

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Here is a photo of the breech face.
https://imgur.com/C96QtG3

Alces,
If you confirm that there is no sign of rifling in the barrel, I agree that it must have been converted and the markings changed.

Raimey,
A rim recess for 9.3x74R fits very well for 410, in fact there was recently forum on this site concerning the use of 9.3x74R cases to load 410 shot shells. The person trying this reported that the 9.3x74R rims generally the 410-rim recess very well. My cousin is currently working on a double rifle project for a 65 mm long version of a Lancaster type cartridge. He wound up using 9.3x74R cases instead of the 7x65R ones he started with due to losing too many of the 7mm cases expanding the necks. A 16-gram bullet would fit for a 9.3x74R but my hesitation to agree with that is the amount of metal that would have to be removed to go from .365-.366" groove diameter to a .410" bore. I'm not saying it can't be done, just that it would work better with one of the Lancaster express cartridges (an express cartridge usually has a light for caliber bullet and as I recall, research for my cousin's double indicated somewhere around a 240- 250 grain bullet). It would answer the question if there were enough left of the old bore mark to make it out.
Mike

Well, typical strikers. And Single Kersten lockup


Many thanks Ford.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

I inspected the odd stamps a bit closer & it reads: >>X 16 X 4l0 *<< and the characters are very amateurish.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

I don't see any signs of filing on the barrel, so I can't say if they filed any proof marks off. Should I be at all concerned about putting .410 bird shot through this thing?

What thickness might you have on the tube?

Serbus,


Raimey
rse

They just worked off the original stamps

How about rifling?? What might the inside of the 0.410" tube resemble?

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Both barrels are smooth and bright with no visible traces of rifling. I have not had the thickness measured myself, but I did while googling around find a listing for this exact gun (same serial number) sold at auction in 2016. (And for a heck of a lot more than I paid for it). That listing says the bottom wall thickness is .04. In any case, I will have a local gunsmith take a look before I fire it.

https://auctions.morphyauctions.com/lot-428104.aspx

Too, a typical 0.410" slug is 7 grammes so in order to get to 16 grammes one would have to double it +2 grammes & that is out of the ballpark. So some alternation had to occur. The answer may lie with the 1926 ledger @ the Suhl Proof Facility, that is if one could access it.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

The Morphy description stated the bore diameter of the lower barrel is .398", at the muzzle(choke). This is too small (in my opinion) for the original caliber to have been one of the Lancasters. This brings us back to the 9.3X74R, as Raimey opined in the beginning. Even if the barrel wasn't very good, it seems like a poor conversion, in spite of my opinion that the previous owner could do whatever he wanted with it.
Mike