doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Boxlock Saint-Etienne gun - really tight top lever

Bring the shotgun to me
I will fix it within 7 years
When you get her back, she will be smooth.
I promise to put lots of shells through her

Mike

Mike, it's on the way. The guy with the goat cart who picked it up, promised that his cousin's sister's Uncle had a clever way to get it to you non FFL. I have a receipt from them; Should be there by Christmas. (Forgot to ask the year).
Gene

Gene,
It shouldn’t take that much effort to open an old Boxlock.

I’d wager my left one that the firing pin on the side of the extractor that is bent in is projecting too far out of the breech face. Send the gun back to Gunter. He can likely straighten out the extractor, and set that pin to the correct projection out of the breech face. He needed to fire the gun after he worked on it, if you rushed him, shame on you, if he didn’t, shame on him. All good gunsmiths are overworked these days, I wouldn’t be too quick blame him, yet. Some ammunition has hard primers, but, never seen shotgun primers be so hard as to impede opening after firing.

Pistols, yes, that can be a thing.

He needs to see what happened.

Best,
Ted

Wish I had saved the cartridge. During Covid I bought some old Federal 2 3/4" 12 gauge shells 1145 fps, thinking I might use them in this (then believed to be) 2 1/2" chambers. Gunter enlightened me that they had been lengthened to 2 3/4" without reproof, no doubt in America.

The Shell case was deformed and as I pulled it out of the chamber, the rim actually detached from the central base of the shell. Perhaps I will go back to Gunter. But the problem of the sticky, hard-to-break gun, appears to be more than the firing pins (which he shortened last time).

Sometimes it takes a gunsmith more than one try.

I have guns I run “old” ammunition in. Most of my “good” doubles (all of them, to me, actually) get fed better, more current stuff.

Your gun features French single proof, fairly stout, but, I’d wager the right one that the Federal load you fed it, is outside the pressure the gun was expected to be used with, day in and day out. The rim separation is more than a bit concerning to me, and, I’d stop using that load in your gun, posthaste. Did the opened shell have a rough, or, torn appearance, up at the business end, after it was fired? Classic symptom of a hot load, fired in a short chamber, or, a steep or stepped forcing cone. The rim separation might indicate a chamber that has suffered a polish that was too great, or, inconsistent.

That should be a good little gun. That design is common as the rain France and Belgium, and I probably handled a hundred of them over the years I was importing French guns. It can be put right, in that I have no doubt.

Best,
Ted

Ted, that "Wonder" gun is stout - side clips and all. It should take about anything. I'm suspecting the cartridge was the problem. There were some bits of rust on it and the husk was distorted after ejection...rim and primer pulled away from the base. But, even after Gunter had shortened the (very thin) firing pins, it was still really stiff to open. That should be looked at before going back to the firing pins.

As mentioned, this is probably a 1920's Saint Etienne gun I speculated was marketed by a well-known manufacturer of bicycles and motorcycles in Saint-Étienne named “Ravat.” Ravat was founded in 1898 and in 1910 came out with a famous bicycle christened “Wonder.”

The problems with the gun are frustrating. It obviously was a war trophy gun, cost a few hundred dollars and was meant to be backup for when my Special Forces comrades came to town for Memorial Day and I needed an extra gun. I hate to discard it, not least because it's part of son's heritage in a way (Grandfather is from Lyon/ Saint-Chamond), but it's costing me more than it's worth. (This said, I don't think I ever said that about a motorcycle so will probably soldier on to a solution). (Or maybe not - I tend to get too stubborn over mechanical stuff; I just don't want to pass on problems to the next possible owner, even for a few hundred $. . after it gets back from Mike down in the panhandle).

Don’t leave your son a broken gun. That, is not a heritage. I know people who have left sons and daughters perfectly good guns with the knowledge that those kids have absolutely zero interest in hunting and shooting, which, is also not a heritage, but, that is a conversation for a different day.

Most guns cost you more than they are worth. Such is the nature of retail, be it guns, cars, groceries, et al. My father was a career Marine, and very sternly warned me that no gun should ever be left broken or nonoperational, his feeling was fix it or destroy it, now. I would prefer it go to an outfit like Numrich, to be used for parts, but, it is still technically being destroyed.

I guess I take the “in for a penny, in for a pound” approach with decent old guns. You might feel different.

Best of luck, at any rate.

Ted

Thanks as always Ted. I hate to give up on this but it might be time. I'll still try to fix it before passing it on. Can't do otherwise ethically.

Thus far, there are a lot of clues pertaining to the problem. It seems evident that the bent extractor problem is due to forcefully opening the gun with a shell stuck in the left chamber. The barrels were a pretty effective lever. Archimedes would understand. Were both barrels fired, or just the left? As Ted says, the extractor can probably be straightened.

Since Gunter has already shortened the firing pins, I'd like to assume a gunsmith of his repute at least checked for correct protrusion. Unfortunately, some gunsmiths do not test fire with live ammo. The old German gunsmith who had a shop near my parent's house had a hole in the floor of his shop so he could test fire guns into a drum of sand in the basement. The first time I saw (and heard) that, he fired a .30-06 into the hole without any warning. It certainly got my attention. The Federal factory loads should be sized to fit any correct chamber dimensions, so the chamber may be undersized (which would be evident when loading), or rough from reamer marks, or pitted. The empty stuck for a reason. Tearing part of the rim off is a real big clue.

You told the Nutty Professor that the opening force was essentially the same whether the gun was loaded or not. Then you said it was somewhat easier to open after Gunter worked on it, but still fairly stiff. Did you mention to him what Kutter said about checking the spring, and checking to see if the spanner nut on the top lever shaft was over-tightened? Those things would account for the stiff top lever. I think Kutter has demonstrated that he is very knowledgeable, so his advice is worthy of attention.

I am also curious if the opening force is somewhat less once the gun is cocked. There isn't a whole lot going on to check. Opening force on the empty gun involves some friction at the knuckle and hinge pin (hence the obsession some have with hinge pin grease), cocking the hammers (cocking rods and compressing main springs), and moving the extractor outward (which you already said moved freely prior to bending it). Adding shells to the equation adds the friction or force to extract the empties, and possible firing pin drag, (which has supposedly been professionally addressed). A loaded gun can also be more difficult to open and close if the critical rim recess (headspace) dimension is a tiny bit too shallow, allowing the case heads to drag on the breech face.

Finally, you might need a gunsmith who has a hole in the floor and a drum of sand in the basement. Bring ear plugs.

McLean, I remember a LONG time ago I was at Alphabet Headquarters teaching the folks
there some special stuff. They were so interested and helpful, twas a good week there.

Seems like all the students were named Smith and Jones, so I just left training certificates
with the names not filled in


Mike