doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Patterning a black powder double gun

I’ve got an 1896 vintage Remington 1889 hammer gun I’m working up loads for dove hunting. I loaded up five different charges and just shot them through the right, more open choked barrel as it seems to be the more temperamental of the two. Components used were 2 1/2” Magtech brass shells, large pistol primers, .125” nitro over powder card, 1/2” lubricated fiber wad, and a .025” overshot card. Loads were as follows:

2 3/4 drams FFg and 1oz of 7 1/2 shot
2 3/4 drams FFg and 1 1/8 oz of 7 1/2 shot
3 drams FFg and 1 1/8 oz of 7 1/2 shot
3 drams FFg and 1 1/4 oz of 7 1/2 shot
3 1/4 drams FFg and 1 1/4 oz of 7 1/2 shot

Here are the resulting patterns.


2 3/4 - 1 oz


2 3/4 - 1 1/8 oz


3 - 1 1/8 oz


3 - 1 1/4 oz


3 1/4 - 3 1/4 oz

I think the last pattern is the best, even though it doesn’t have the highest percentage of shot in the circles. But it does have the most even distribution of pellets.

Keep in mind that this barrel’s constriction shows to be an improved modified choke, but it’s shooting this load more along the lines of a cylinder choke. I’d be interested to hear any and all comments or advice from those smarter than me.

What brand of fiber cushion wad are you using and how do you lube it? If they are circle fly, I would try something else. Precision Reloading has their own house brand which is much better than Circle Fly. Ballistic Products also has some other options, but there is not a lot of variety out there.

I would try 2 nitro cards, also.

How do you seal the ends?

Last, someone here, long ago, suggested using a paper wrap around the shot. I use some water color art paper which is thick and will easily and greatly reduce barrel scrubbing by the shot which gives fewer fliers.

I've noticed in looking at old ammunition charts from the early 1900's that the standard 3 dram 1 1/8 oz. 12 gauge load had a muzzle velocity of 1050 fps. With most of today's loads of 1200 plus fps, I would imagine it would affect pattern density, i.e., probably more open. Just an observation. Regards, Sandlapper

They are muzzleloader original 1/2” preluded fiber wads and the ends are sealed with clear gorilla glue. The nitro cards and overshot cards are both circle fly 11 gauge cards. They still seem fairly loose in the hull, and these are virgin hulls. I’m concerned they will be too loose on fire formed hulls.

The overpowder cards need to be tight and more of them will probably help quite a bit also. You may find it easier to use plastic hulls to get better wad/hull fit. I use CF nitro and overshot wads, but not their cushion wads. I pressure tested them with nitro powder, and they failed miserably. I am not familiar with "muzzleloader original" wads, but if they are like the CF cushion wads, I would look elsewhere. I lube one of the two nitro card wads with beeswax or BP lube, but not the Precision Reloading cushion wads (doing so really increased chamber pressures).

I also use an overshot card UNDER the shot to prevent pellets from embedding in the cushion wad.

GLS has taught me a few tricks about loading nitro fiber ammunition and one of the most important tricks is to use a good bit of pressure on the wad column. I made up a tool that will put about 90# or a bit more on the wads before I add the shot. It greatly improved the consistency of the loads from shot to shot.

Last, I again recommend the paper wrap. You might even consider cutting the shot and compression sections out of a plastic wad and using that, at least to see if it helps.

Look up v m star .use volume powder and shot

Sandlapper: turn-of-the-century shotshell speed was often reported as "Average Velocity"; sometimes over 100 feet, sometimes over 40 yards.
The 3 Dram load "average velocity" would be about 1000 fps

G.T. Teasdale-Buckell, Experts on Guns and Shooting, 1900
https://books.google.com/books?id=P7UrAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA235
1 1/8 oz. load comparisons. Pressure converted used Burrard’s formula
42 gr. = 3 Dram Bulk Nitro – 1” chamber pressure 7,985 psi / MV 1208 fps (1200)
45 1/2 gr. = 3 1/4 Dram – 9,730 psi / MV 1,274 fps (1255 fps SAAMI standard)
49 gr. = 3 1/2 Dram – 11,780 psi / 1,328 fps (1300 fps)

In a 1927 Western Cartridge Co. flyer “Super-X The Long Range Load” by Capt. Chas. Askins the 12g “Duck Load” (not specified but presumed to be 1 1/4 oz. Super-X “Field”) is described as 3 1/2 dram (38.5 gr. DuPont Oval Powder = 11 gr. / Dr. Eq.); at 1400 fps (at the muzzle rather than 3 feet) and 1000 fps average over 40 yards, with a breech pressure of 3 3/4 tons or about 8,400 psi + 10-14%
3” Super-X “Record” with 1 3/8 oz. at MV 1400 fps with 4.25 tons = 9,520 psi + 10-14%
Super-X 10g 1 5/8 oz. “about 4 1/2 Drams” No. 2 shot Full choke 32” barrel, average velocity over 40 yds. 1030 fps; “up to 13,000 psi” by crushers = about 14,500 psi by modern transducers.

Clarification on compression: at what point do you compress? Just the powder, once the OP card has been placed on the powder, or the whole wad column after the cushion wad has been placed over the OP card? I use brass hulls from RMC.

Thanks.

I compress the over powder card until I hear a crunch. Then just press the fiber wad down tightly. I will repress the fiber wads after they are inserted in every case, just to ensure air pressure has not pushed them back out.

That's how I have been doing it but Brent's post made me wonder if the fiber wad should be heavily compressed, too.

I know most experts say all pattern test should be 40 yards. But I often do 20, 25 or 30 yards if those distances are more realistic for my most likely shooting distances. I’ve seen a lot of good 25-30 yard patterns which look too open and spotty at 40 yards. And most people hit few Dove at an honest 40 yards, for that matter few even know what 40 yards is in the field.

I place distance markers, cut weeds, when I’m shooting Dove. At 30 or 33 yards which is my effective .410 patterns. If a Dove is inside 33 yards I expect a clean kill when I do my part. Hence the shorter pattern distances. All my .410 patterns look weak at 40 yards, which is beyond my shooting distances. So I use 25-30 as my test range when pattern.

The First and last pattern look the best to me. I shoot black powder loads in everything from 28 gauge to 4 gauge and in most of my guns a heavier powder charge patterns more evenly. I have found that not to be the case with smokeless powder.

Thanks for all the help! I thought the last pattern was the best as well. My plan was to pattern that load at shorter distances as well so I can figure what an effective range will be.

Just an observation, but the pellet strikes appear predominantly "doubles". Is this an artefact due to the substance of the backstop or are the pellet marks actually two adjacent pellet strikes?

On the basis of your remark that the wads feel to be a slack fit in the hull, can there be gas leakage to account for the pattern irregularity and distribution of pellet strike?

I think the double marks are a Sharpie pen next to each pellet strike indicating it has been counted. I noticed the same thing and wondered for a moment how that could be.

I do think that loose wads will have an effect on pattern (and efficiency of the load in general. In fact, I know it will.

Perhaps I should try 10 gauge wads. Of course, this is my first foray into reloading black powder, so I have no idea how tight and how much force it should take to install the cards and wads.

3 drams and 1 1/8oz of good #6 shot worked well for me in a cylinder bored hammergun.Shot some really good grouse with that combo!
That was in ordinary PT plastic cases,card + fibre wad and roll turnover with card.Only seating pressure on wad column.

I use felt wads in paper cases. I find them easier to apply lube to and they load better than most of the bigger fiber wads. I am not sure how they would do in Magtechs. I load 3-1/4dr of 3F, a nitro card, a 1/4” dry felt wad, a 1/4” lubed felt wad (I use wonderlube), an overshot card, 1-1/8oz lead, and roll crimp. I sometimes use a Nitro card on top instead of an overshot card in brass cases if heavy walking is expected. I have used glue on top but am not convinced it’s necessary if the top card is tight.

Drew, Thanks for the clarification; I never noticed the discrepancy in terminology before. Sandlapper

I always use equal volumes of BP and shot. I have killed a limit of doves with my 16 ga. with that loading.

Sorry, no pics. It was before cell phone cameras.