doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com L.C. Smith 3E - special?

It sure looks like a factory checkering upgrade? It dang sure isn't a transplant with a fit like that! Matching Serial number under long tang.

I would say that was a special order for the checkering. That style was found on Monograms, Premiers, Deluxes and the earlier A2's and A3"s.

Wow! Nice unit. What year? Weight? Dimensions? Looks like fluid steel, split top lever, & a two position safety. Flat screwheads so post-transition. Stop check gun, bushed firing pins?

The 3E is a pretty typical pre-13 gun likely right around 1900. It has the two piece top tang, bushed firing pins, regularweight frame, and 3 position safety I would call standard on the pre-1913 L.C. Smith.
Nitro Fluid Steel barrels standard for the grade with very yellowed twin ivory beads. It does not have the round stop check I assume you are asking about, and I would ask the experts- is that check seen on ejector guns ?

All L.C. Smith's were on a Regular frame until 1907 when the 20 gauge came out on a Featherweight frame. Supposedly there were 7 20 gauges built on a Regular frame but as of now, not one has been reported. The joint check stopped in late 1889. The 3 position safety carried over from the Syracuse L.C. Smith's because the early Syracuse guns did not have that feature and for some live bird shooters and when trap shooting first started, calling for the bird and not shooting resulted in a lost bird and back then it usually meant money lost so the 3 position safety was put on Syracuse guns and that carried over to Hunter Arms Co. using that feature on their guns but was not a standard feature on later guns. Nitro Steel barrels were the best but there were some with Chain Damascus barrels.
The 3E shown has the last forend escutcheon after 1902, the banjo release, this is the 4th revision that lasted until the 1930's when the rectangular release was used.

David,
when you say the 3 position safety was not standard on later guns, is later "post-13?" or a period of the pre-13 guns as well? I can't recall a gun with the two piece top tang that I have handled that didn't have the 3 postion safety.

Most post-13 guns I have some that do and some that do not. The Syracuse guns I have do but since there are no records there is no way to tell when made. I have not recorded in my records when the two-piece top tang stopped.

LC Smiths are difficult to make sense of at times. I ended-up reading alot about them after I bought my Quality 1 gun (because the seller had ID'ed it as an O-grade & I could tell it wasn't). Pre-Fulton/Hunter Arms guns are really tough because the records for the Syracuse guns are either spotty or just don't exist (the Brits were way-better at record keeping in the 1880s). Graded American doubles are rare in this country (it seems we've mostly descended from the hoi-palloi here, sadly) and accordingly, are usually expensive. Some of them are lovely beyond belief however. With the changing times in this country (i.e. the Boomers ageing out and the urbanization of the rest of it) some of those better guns should eventually find their way onto the market. Since most folks in the gun fraternity tend to think Elsies are just low-end Field Grade guns now, the market for them might be depressed initially, but any examination of these better guns should be a revelation (for the folks who actually know fine guns).

My pre-13 grade 3E has the two piece top tang and a two position safety. And, I'm glad it was built with that type safety, for my use anyway.

Nice 3E Stan, any chance of seeing the rest of it? I love how they filed the top of the action (where it meets the breech-balls). Classic LC Smith (no British gun ever looked like that). My Quality 1 gun doesn't have that and when I first saw it's photos online, I knew it had to be way-early in the evolution of these guns. My figuring was that "older should be better", right(?), so I took the gamble on it's purchase.



That 3-position safety isn't for everyone (it was made for a different time and a more gun-familiar culture).

What is engraved on the top rib of that 3E?

Sure, Lloyd. I'll put them up tonight when I get home.

Here they are. I bought it from RWTF (Francis), but it had been briefly advertised by his good friend Brad Bachelder, and these photos are ones I saved from Bachelder's site.





















Hope this is of interest, Stan

I don't know what I'm looking at, except that I know that I'm looking at some well-made shotguns. That fleur-de-lis chequering on the original poster's musket... Damn my eyes.

It's fun to own shootable artwork, innit?

Dewey Vicknair lambasted L C Smiths pretty hard. Some here think that he hung the moon.

So far, I have lost no sleep over Dewey's opinions.

Any issues with the HOT trigger?

Stan:

Thank you for that. This one seems to be a rather unique combination of items (3E, HOT, vent rib, 3-inch, ejectors, beavertail, and pre-1913). I guess I had thought the 3-inch guns were much later?

Yeah, Mr. Vicknair was pretty unkind to Elsie. If you're taking about a hard-used, un-cared for, 1940s Plain-Jane Field Grade with a broken stock then maybe I can understand his frustrations. The better (& earlier) guns seem to have alot more going for them.

Only one. With heavy duck loads it doubled with me once ....... 1 1/4 oz. duck loads. Pretty sure that was because of a double tap on the trigger by me. Never happened before, or since. My other L C Smith is a 16 ga., and also has a HOT, and never a "bobble" with it, even with 1 1/8 oz. crow loads.

Stan very nice and interesting 3E. Your gun was made in 1905, on the underside of the for-end metal there is a 2 stamped which Hunter Arms stamped there to denote this gun had a second set of barrels, also the ventilated rib didn't come out until the 1920's and I believe the gun was sent back to the factory for the ventilated rib and re-enforced loop. In many cases there are no records of guns sent back for work. Also looks like a Jostam recoil pad.

Haven't seen Francis post in quite some time, hope he is doing well.

Thanks, David. Francis has had some health issues, and I haven't heard from him in awhile, but wish I could. I spoke with his wife last year, at some point, and she shared that he was getting better but still struggling.

I know that this is the second set of barrels the gun had, as Francis still has the first set. He had them fitted to another Smith gun, that he shot for a long time. He told me once that if he ever decided to get rid of the gun I could buy it. It'd be nice to put the original barrels back with the gun.

BTW, the original owner C. J. Backstran (whose name is etched, or lightly engraved, on the right barrel) was a pigeon shooter at the old Philadelphia Gun club. We speculate he had this set of barrels, with the 3" chambers, made for pigeons. They are certainly choked for the game.

Stan since you know who owned this gun and that he was a pigeon shooter and ordered the gun to his fit, I'm guessing it has less than 2" DAC and is made for rising birds.

I can't imagine splitting up a two barrel set! I am not a purist, per se, but that makes my head hurt.

Gorgeous gun. That checkering is awesome!!


Ol' Lefty

Foxy joined the ages last September. Here is the obit: https://www.legacy.com/us/obituaries/thedailynews/name/francis-morin-obituary?id=53023005 RIP.

Godspeed Foxy! Damn....that's hard to hear right now.

Thanks for sharing that link, limapapa.

I knew that he had suffered a stroke, but never felt right about sharing that information with the rest of the forum, as I was concerned that it might be an invasion of his personal life for me to do so. His wife had told me of that when I called after realizing he had been absent for some time from this forum.

Just so everyone can understand his "screen name", Run With The Fox (RWTF), his real name was very nearly the same as the famous Swamp Fox of the Revolution, Francis Marion. I'll remember his love for the South, and for grits, both of which I thought very odd for a Michigan native.

Despite a penchant for driving some folks nuts, it wasn't intentional or mean spirited. He never met a tangent he wouldn't take. He was a good man. I once swapped grits for paper hulls with him. RIP, Foxy. Gil

Rest in peace Francis.

What a shame. I and others will miss him, RIP Francis.

Yes, that is a shame. Sorry to hear. Rest In Peace.

Ol' Lefty

Rest in peace RWTF, may your coverts always hold birds!
Karl

He will be missed. Rest in peace.

Foxy sent me this photo, taken with his great friend Brad Bachelder, just a short time before I bought the 3E from him. Some of you who knew Brad might be interested in seeing it.

Gil pegged Francis pretty well. I will say this ...... he got under some people's skins, but it was unintentional. Francis was a true gentleman, IMHO.