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A mystery pre-war 30-06 JP Sauer came home today

I didn't know a lot about this one other than I like the way it looked.

I though it had a miss-matched Bolt, but found that number on the Action also.

I assume this is between the Wars, but not sure of year of mfg.

Here are the specs..

21" Octagon to Round Barrel, Full Matt Rib to Ramp Front Site w/ Silver Bead
Lyman 35 Rear Site - (orig rear site on rib is milled down)
7 lb 6 oz
14" LOP
Type B Floor Plate Lever
Double-Set Triggers
Barrel Rib marked "Mod Mauser: J.P. Sauer & Son"
Barrel side marked "30 U.S.G.1906"
Barrel shank marked "Fluid Steel Krupp Essen"
Barrel marked "Crown N STMG / 10G"
Action and Barrel marked "182644"
Action marked "44580"
All Bolt parts marked "80"
blank brass escutcheon on bottom of stock
Braided Sling

as always comments and opinions are welcome ....
UPDATE ... I FOUND AN IDENTICAL RIFLE HERE - SAME FRONT SITE AND LYMAN 35 SITE - https://www.gunsinternational.com/g...02267632&usource=lc&lctid=509172

http://www.buckstix.com/buckpics/SAUER-06-000.jpg

[Linked Image from buckstix.com]

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This is a nice rifle, but what is the mystery about it ?


Bill Ferguson
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buckstix,
It the number 44580 stamped on the back of the magazine box?
Mike

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Originally Posted by Der Ami
buckstix,
It the number 44580 stamped on the back of the magazine box?
Mike
Hello, Yes the number is also on the back of the mag box. (see updated picture) There is also a matching "80" on the inside of the floor plate.

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buckstix,
See the comments I wrote about this rifle in the German Gun Collectors Assns.' forum.
Mike

Last edited by Der Ami; 04/10/24 04:53 PM.
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Hello All,

Well, I got another JP Sauer today. This one is 8x57 caliber. I think this one might be an early one. It is cock on close and there is a little finger that helps hold the bolt handle down. (see third picture from the end) This one has stamps and numbers all over the place - I have shown all that I found. I will be happy to hear from someone that knows what they all mean. The stock looks as old as the rifle but its not like the one on the 30-06. I have slugged the bore and its .318 dia. Here are all the photos of the rifle and the markings. Do you think I could find a scope with the required mounting for this rifle?

http://www.buckstix.com/buckpics/SAUER8X57-000.jpg

[Linked Image from buckstix.com]

http://www.buckstix.com/buckpics/8x57sauer-000.jpg

[Linked Image from buckstix.com]

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buckstix,
First, re-read the comments for your other rifle on Nitro Express forum. What you seem to have is another pre-mod 98, this one #27 and may be the smallest number known. The small bolt hold down was likely added by Sauer, because the early transitional actions lacked the spring-loaded plunger on the left side of the bolt shroud. If that is not enough, the Imperial eagle acceptance stamp on the top right-hand side of the barrel likely means it was used in early WW1 as a sniper rifle. I say this because if this stamp was placed during the pre- acceptance test of mod 98 actions, it would not be on an octagonal, but round barrel. If it is what I think it is, you should find evidence of a plaque having been attached to the lower right side of the buttstock. There may be evidence, also, of a unit stamp on the stock. The stamp on mine is pretty clear, but the plaque screw (or nail) holes have been filled and you have to look closely to see them. The plaque was a caution against using any ammunition except that having .318" bullets. It has been a long time since 1914 and a lot of things could have happened to the stock. Since you are interested in mounting a scope, I would advise against doing it in a way that modifies the rifle. The German Gun Collectors Association's technical editor, Axel Eichendorff wrote an article in WAIDMANNSHEIL, Issue #47, Winter 2011, concerning these rifles. If you don't have a copy, I recommend you obtain one and read it, you will find it interesting. I will study the photos again tomorrow and inform you of anything else I find.
Mike

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buckstix,
Upon further review and re- consideration, I no longer believe your rifle has the lowest numbered transitional action known. In one of his comments, Axel mentions one numbered in the teens, whereas yours is 27.(Note, it is pretty hard to evaluate these rifles when they are posted under different threads in different forums and some photos open while others may not) By the way, If I tell you something and Axel tells you something different in the same or different forum, you should accept his comments as authoritative. Since I think the action was used in the testing and later sold to Sauer and had a civilian rifle built around it, which was still later donated to help the war effort against the British, it would have markings from different sources. Most of the markings come from its life as a civilian rifle and its production as one. The numbers 27on the action are from Mauser, except the one on the barrel next to the receiver ring, which was Sauer matching their new barrel to the correct receiver. The number 76838 is the Sauer serial number and wherever there is an 838 it is Sauer's procedure to match parts to the serial number 76838 . The number 172/28 is the proof mark, showing the bore (not groove or bullet) diameter as expressed in gauge measurement. The 2.75g G.B.P. over St.M.P. is the nitro proof load, meaning 2.75grams of rifle flake powder with a steel jacketed bullet. The two crowns, one of which is over an N is the proof mark showing nitro proof of rifles. The little men, affectionally known as Wildman are Sauer's in house quality marks and are not official proof marks. The Imperial eagle on the barrel flat was applied by the Imperial government to accept the rifle for use in the Great(large)War. The bore diameter being shown in gauge measurement means Sauer built it before the 1911 improvements to the 1891 proof law were implemented in 1912. It would have been built after testing in 1896/7 was completed; so, between 1898 and 1912. Unfortunately, the original Sauer stock seems to have been replaced with a more modern style one, and unless the person you bought the rifle from can produce it, the identification of the military unit it was issued to is lost. Other single numbers or other marks are likely workmen's touch marks and since there is no ledger of them the workmen cannot be positively identified. I hope this helps.
Mike

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Hello Mike,

Yes, I consider Axel the absolute authority of Mausers. He has been much help over the years. And yes, he posted pictures of one with a lower number than this one. I like to post on multiple forums because some forum members don't subscribe to other forums, and by doing so I can get several opinions - albeit good or bad. I believe the stock was also a European addition / upgrade based on the "old" condition and the German style script serial number in the barrel channel and the horn butt plate. Perhaps the original stock was broken.

Thanks very much for your input.

Buck

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[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Yes, the Imperial German Army acceptance mark on the clearly civilian barrel of Buckstix’s 8x57J Sauer shows it was taken into sniper service in 1914, probably one of those collected in the Duke of Ratibor’s drive to round up scoped hunting rifles in the military calibre.

The intermediate action may well itself have been of military origin.

This Rigby, retailed by them August 1898 to a Mr. W. H. Fox and originally with a cross-over stock had an intermediate action with the action number 10.

It is in Jon Speed’s book as the first of the Rigby Mauser that he lists. As I recall he said these military trials actions came from trials rifles broken up at the end of the trials and disposed of in the trade.

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Ford:

The Nitro stamp looks to be coupled with the >>4000 atm Beschusspatrone<<. Those >>Caveman w/ a Staff<<(3 I see on the bottom of the barrel near the ring) are Sauer process marks. Then the odd Imperial Eagle, Sauer used a similar one, on the right side of the tube near the scope mount @ the rear of the barrel near the ring could be the Prussian Spandau arsenal in 1915 where these stop-gap rifles were topped with glass and pressed into Sniper service.

Serbus,

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I believe the bases for the claw mounts Pre-date the 1914-15 military service. They are decoratively engraved and I don’t think a military arsenal would have allowed time for that to have been done.

The shortage addressed when the lines became static was for rifles already set up with scopes.

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And I can't argue with you there. But the mark does exist & it denotes one of two things: Arsenal Stamp of Sauer Process Stamp.

Serbus,

Raimey
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Raimey,
I see only one Imperial Eagle, it is the acceptance stamp applied by the arsenal ((unit armorers?) to the already scoped Sauer rifle, built around a pre-98 transitional action.

buckstix
You have mentioned a desire to scope the 8mm and I cautioned against changing the rifle in a way that can't be undone. I have noticed that the front base is dovetailed, and the rear one is screwed down with 4 staked in screws. They can be carefully removed (with screw locations preserved, so that when replaced the stake marks and engraving will match) and a Cerrosafe model of the interior of the bases can be made as samples to duplicate in making new rings. This type ring will be considerably easier to make and fit than Shuler claw mounts would. An important consideration is to ensure the locking lever in the front base doesn't go all the way down and bottom out. If it bottoms out, you don't know if it is tight.
Mike

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Originally Posted by Der Ami
You have mentioned a desire to scope the 8mm and I cautioned against changing the rifle in a way that can't be undone. I have noticed that the front base is dovetailed, and the rear one is screwed down with 4 staked in screws. They can be carefully removed (with screw locations preserved, so that when replaced the stake marks and engraving will match) and a Cerrosafe model of the interior of the bases can be made as samples to duplicate in making new rings. This type ring will be considerably easier to make and fit than Shuler claw mounts would. An important consideration is to ensure the locking lever in the front base doesn't go all the way down and bottom out. If it bottoms out, you don't know if it is tight.
Mike
Hello Mike,
Yes, I will not alter the rifle in any way. In fact I will not even remove the bases. I plan to make a "hook" & a "peg" to precisely fit the bases, and then attach them to some old vintage steel see-thru scope rings that I squirreled away years ago.

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Hello all,

Here's an update on the 8x57 Sauer. I was told by Axel that finding a scope with early JP Sauer rings would be like "cracking the lottery jackpot".

Well, I didn't crack the lottery jackpot, but I did find a fellow in Texas that sold me his scope. He bought it years ago because he recognized the rings as rare early JP Sauer type. Unfortunately the scope has been abused with a cracked lens, and crooked cross-hairs, and it is so cloudy that you can't see through it. I am not sure it can be repaired, so I might just look for a different scope to put into the rings.

Perhaps someone can tell me something about the scope.

http://www.buckstix.com/buckpi...7sauer-scope-000.jpg

[Linked Image from buckstix.com]

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Well, I installed an Jack 2.5x52, Berlin so.33 WWI Sniper scope. Although very old, this has optics that are clear enough for shooting.

Next stop will be the range to test it out.

http://www.buckstix.com/buckpics/sauer8X57-scope.jpg

[Linked Image from buckstix.com]

http://www.buckstix.com/buckpics/8x57sauer-targ.jpg

[Linked Image from buckstix.com]

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