June
S M T W T F S
1
2 3 4 5 6 7 8
9 10 11 12 13 14 15
16 17 18 19 20 21 22
23 24 25 26 27 28 29
30
Who's Online Now
2 members (FelixD, steve voss), 317 guests, and 5 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums10
Topics38,616
Posts547,046
Members14,428
Most Online1,344
Apr 29th, 2024
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 5 1 2 3 4 5
#646868 05/15/24 09:14 AM
Joined: May 2024
Posts: 12
Boxlock
OP Offline
Boxlock

Joined: May 2024
Posts: 12
Hello to all, I’ve been reading here for many years, and have finally joined. I particularly like small to medium bore German doubles, but I’m fairly new to them, as I’ve long been a Mauser collector. I’d like to get input on one of mine, a Scherping hammer gun in 9.3x72 I bought earlier this year. I presume it is likely antique, but perhaps early turn of the century. It appears to be pre cartridge standardization, as I have tried boxes of 9.3x72 from probably the 1920’s and they come about a 1/4” shy of fully chambering. I’ll cast the chamber when I get a chance to, and see some real dimensions.

*** well I can’t figure out the pictures just yet

Last edited by Themauserkid; 05/15/24 09:17 AM.
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,971
Likes: 207
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,971
Likes: 207
Just lovely to hear of another H. Scherping. There was just nothing short about a Scherping offering. I assume it has the Rigby/Charles Harvey - Viennese Forend latch(1793 of 1866)?

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forum...mp;Words=1793&Search=true#Post275692

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

1 member likes this: Themauserkid
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,971
Likes: 207
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,971
Likes: 207
Just a note or word of caution, I think Hart has a similarScherping DR in 9,3X72R S&S or was it 9,3X74R? I do know that Ford has one or has had one. It appears to be a 9,3X74R but is actually a 9,3X72R Sauer & Sohn and vastly different. But a chamber cast will ferret out the chamber.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Joined: May 2024
Posts: 12
Boxlock
OP Offline
Boxlock

Joined: May 2024
Posts: 12
Raimey,
Thanks for the input, it’s actually a top lever/Deeley gun. I’m in the process of acquiring a Weipert proofed gun in the pattern you linked however. Regards,
Clay

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,971
Likes: 207
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,971
Likes: 207
Hum, I would really like to see the Bohemian longarm...

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,971
Likes: 207
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,971
Likes: 207
Too, if you would forward any fotos to me, I'll gladly post them for you.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,522
Likes: 223
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,522
Likes: 223
Themauserkid,
There is bad news and good news. The bad news is there are several distinct versions of 9.3x72R cartridges. The good news is whichever version it is, we can figure it out and get you shooting. Based only on your description of the gun and your unsuccessful effort to chamber a cartridge, I believe the rifle is chambered for the "D" (Deutsche) version and the cartridges you used were likely the "N" (normalizert?- standardized) version. There are a couple ways to deal with this, but we need more than my guess, to be sure. We need to start with clear legible photos of the proof marks (if any) on the underside of the barrels and will likely include making a chamber cast, as you suggested.
Mike

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 315
Likes: 44
CJF Offline
Sidelock
*
Offline
Sidelock
*

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 315
Likes: 44
I also have a German double in 9.3x72r that won't fully chamber factory ammo. Hangs up in a similar way. Turns out the chambers are super tight. I wrapped the brass in a single layer of household tape and ran that through the sizing die and it fits and fires.

Be sure to cast the bores as well as the chambers, as if I recall correctly, mine are also undersize/tight.

Rifle is quite nice. Retailed by Weisgerber, like a pre-war Merkel I have as well (that one in 8x57R with a .318 bore.)

Joined: May 2024
Posts: 12
Boxlock
OP Offline
Boxlock

Joined: May 2024
Posts: 12
Thanks for the input everyone, I have been gone for a while, but will make a chamber cast when I can. I have a quick photo set of this one, I’ll forward some pictures, and thank you for the offer. Also it was a couple of boxes of N rounds now that you mention it.

I would love to see any and all German doubles if anyone feels like sharing them. I would love a Merkel, I have two 16/8x57 Bockbüchsflinte from Merkel, but no doubles.

CJF #646904 05/15/24 07:00 PM
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,522
Likes: 223
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,522
Likes: 223
CJF,
I suspect yours also has chambers for the "D" version. Your "fix" is very close to one of the ways to deal with the problem. Some just run current "N" version ammo far enough into a 38-55 file trim die that it will chamber. The 38-55 head size is a few thousandths smaller than the 9.3s, but the bullet is larger. This allows the bullet to pass through the die and size the body farther back. A little lubricant is necessary and size it only enough to chamber. If you set the die correctly, it should take less time than the system you use now. You can do the same thing with a 38-55 FL sizing die, if it is the type that has the de-priming assembly in a separate threaded bushing instead of directly screwing into the top of the die body. Removing the threaded bushing will allow the bullet and part of the case to pass through. Of course, if you don't already have 38-55 dies you might not find changing your procedure worthwhile. I'm sure you have already found out that you only need to do it once; you can reload them after firing them in the normal manner using normal loading dies. You mentioned that your rifle also has tight barrels. I have found that .358-.359" groove diameters are very common, which is handy.
Mike

1 member likes this: CJF
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 315
Likes: 44
CJF Offline
Sidelock
*
Offline
Sidelock
*

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 315
Likes: 44
Thanks Mike. I am planning on re-casting the bores on my tight double to confirm their dimensions. I have a jacketed .358" 180gr bullet that would work well I think. And those are so much easier to find than good .366 bullets that are light enough for this rifle (I have some of the Lapua .366 bullets on order. Should arrive this week.)

Chris

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 315
Likes: 44
CJF Offline
Sidelock
*
Offline
Sidelock
*

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 315
Likes: 44
Clay,

You can see pics of both of my German doubles at:

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forum...;Main=50479&Number=641616#Post641616

Regards,
Chris

Last edited by CJF; 05/15/24 09:40 PM.
CJF #646914 05/15/24 08:21 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,971
Likes: 207
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,971
Likes: 207
Originally Posted by CJF
........ Retailed by Weisgerber, like a pre-war Merkel I have as well (that one in 8x57R with a .318 bore.)


Weißgerber / Weisgerber hung out his gunamking shingle in 1814 and hailed from Germany's oldest city, Trier. Which one is it that has the Rascher style engraving on the top of the frame?

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,971
Likes: 207
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,971
Likes: 207
[Linked Image from thumbs2.imgbox.com]

Are the Triebel sights on the DR with the forend on the left?

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Joined: May 2024
Posts: 12
Boxlock
OP Offline
Boxlock

Joined: May 2024
Posts: 12
That’s a beautiful pair of doubles Chris, thanks for the link. I sent you some pictures Raimey. Regards,
Clay

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 315
Likes: 44
CJF Offline
Sidelock
*
Offline
Sidelock
*

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 315
Likes: 44
Raimey,

The Triebel sights are for the forearm on the left. The right is a Gebruder Merkel double, model 131 from 1931 per the seller. Both are wonderful. The Merkel shoots extremely well. I'm still backing into what to feed the 9.3x72r with the Triebel mounts. I have located a set of Triebel system rings to either fit to this rifle or use as a pattern for making a set (I grandly dream of future completed projects....)

Chris

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,971
Likes: 207
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,971
Likes: 207
With all the Trieble refs, I think that Left DR was made by Triebel.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,971
Likes: 207
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,971
Likes: 207
Yeah, send on the images & I will get them up....

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 315
Likes: 44
CJF Offline
Sidelock
*
Offline
Sidelock
*

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 315
Likes: 44
Rainey,

Thank you for teaching me the name of this engraving style. I didn’t know that and am grateful.

By searching for Rascher engraving, I found this page of examples. Some are very close in style to my rifle.

https://www.germanhuntingguns.com/feature-articles/larrys-article/

Regards
Chris

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,971
Likes: 207
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,971
Likes: 207
Yeah, there was only one engraver or family of engravers that applied the tap, tap, tap of the adornment for the Rascher type engraving.

If you post fotos of the touchmarks, that effort may garner additional info on the smokepole.


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,522
Likes: 223
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,522
Likes: 223
CJF,
Both rifles are very nice, and you can be proud of them. I remember your quest for scope mounts, you were very lucky to have found some; I hope you are able to have an appropriate scope fitted. I wouldn't be as eager to use a "period" scope as one with clear optics and a useable reticle. I am a little concerned about the Lapua bullets you have ordered. Their products are very high quality, that is not my concern at all. I just believe those bullets would be more appropriate for 9.3x57-9.3x62- 9.3x74R-9.3x64 class cartridges. The Tesco style bullets currently loaded in factory 9.3x72R ammo are made to be safe for use in barrels of different groove diameters. Buffalo Arms has a bullet for 9.3x72R that seems to have been formed from 200 grain 35 Rem. bullets, therefore would be appropriate for the 9.3x72R velocity. In rifles with .358" barrels, the 35 Rem. bullets would work as they are, the new "Flex Tip" bullets should be great.

Themauserkid,
The part of the above concerning bullets may apply to your rifle, depending on the groove diameter. The Tesco style bullets mentioned above would be useable in about all 9.3x72R rifles and are still made (I believe) by RWS, Norma, and Sellier& Bellot. They may be difficult to find, but that is expected when working with these rifles. It was recently announced that an American company has bought Sellier& Bellot, which would likely make their products more easily available. Also, cast bullets are a good choice for regular use, considering the current cost of most bullets. It is important that proof marks for both rifles be posted. Rifles of this quality were possibly (maybe probably) "express proofed", which could be important because double rifles are more difficult to find a load for, that the bullets impact together.
Mike

1 member likes this: Themauserkid
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 315
Likes: 44
CJF Offline
Sidelock
*
Offline
Sidelock
*

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 315
Likes: 44
Der Ami,

Is your concern about the Lapua bullets about their weight, diameter or jacket toughness/thickness? These are 185grain. These are currently in stock at Grafs.com. https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/87370


I know PPU makes a heavier bullet that's too much for these rifles (280gr?).

Chris

Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,522
Likes: 223
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,522
Likes: 223
CJF,
I was concerned about all three, but truthfully, I didn't check the bullet and didn't know it was only 185 grains. I thought it would have been 286 grains, which is more or less the standard weight for 9.3x62 and 9.3x74R. When I called up your link, I noted the bullet is intended for the 9.3x62, as a lighter bullet choice for smaller animals. I believe the PPU bullet is .366" dia. and 286gr., it is intended for the 9.3x62 which they also sell. If you also shoot one of the more powerful 9.3s, the PPU bullet is a pretty good buy. Your 9.3x72R is your rifle, not mine, and you can use whatever bullet you want. You and Themauserkid reported tight barrels, but neither showed proof marks or groove diameter. Accordingly, I recommended the Tesco style jacketed bullet or cast bullets, but if the groove diameter is .358-.359" I can recommend 35 Rem. bullets. You might ask Lapua what they think about using the 185-gr. bullet in a 9.3x72R. Their advice is more authoritative than mine and I would be interested in theirs, myself. BTW, if you disregard my advice, it won't hurt my feelings, other people disregard it.
Mike

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 315
Likes: 44
CJF Offline
Sidelock
*
Offline
Sidelock
*

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 315
Likes: 44
Hi Mike,

I appreciate the advice. Always.


The PPU bullet is indeed 286gr. I need to get a dedicated thread going on the 9.3x72r double and will do so after I update photos and recast the bore. Same for my 360EX Watson double and a single Alex Henry falling block (the later two in 360BPE 2.25") It looks like at least some rifle bullets are starting to come back in stock. For the longest time I was getting great advice on what I could use, but no one had it.

Depending on how tight the bore is, I might try these: https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/17297

Regards,
Chris

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,971
Likes: 207
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,971
Likes: 207
[Linked Image from thumbs2.imgbox.com]

[Linked Image from thumbs2.imgbox.com]

[Linked Image from thumbs2.imgbox.com]
Low light condition sight???


[Linked Image from thumbs2.imgbox.com]

[Linked Image from thumbs2.imgbox.com]

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,971
Likes: 207
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,971
Likes: 207
[Linked Image from thumbs2.imgbox.com]
Interesting adornment, possibly Herberg engraving.

[Linked Image from thumbs2.imgbox.com]


[Linked Image from thumbs2.imgbox.com]

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,971
Likes: 207
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,971
Likes: 207
[Linked Image from thumbs2.imgbox.com]

[Linked Image from thumbs2.imgbox.com]

[Linked Image from thumbs2.imgbox.com]

[Linked Image from thumbs2.imgbox.com]
K in a Racket or K in a Burr - Dietrich told me Kelbe r& Axel E. says Klett?

But unequivocally the Best of the Best, Stephan Schilling, „Schilling-Schmiede“ or both.....


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Joined: May 2024
Posts: 12
Boxlock
OP Offline
Boxlock

Joined: May 2024
Posts: 12
Thank you Raimey!

Yes, I like the flip up sights, I have a Meffert with this feature as well. There is also a small aperture in the tang, I didn’t get a good shot of that. The two round trap was neat to me, I’m used to seeing larger cartridge traps.

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,971
Likes: 207
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,971
Likes: 207
[Linked Image from thumbs2.imgbox.com]

Neat, neat non-linear toplever.....

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Joined: May 2024
Posts: 12
Boxlock
OP Offline
Boxlock

Joined: May 2024
Posts: 12
Raimey,
In the past I too have read both in regards to the K, it sounds like more research is in order. Do you believe “SS” is the assembler of the barrel set seeing as it is positioned on the rib? Thank you for your assistance.

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,971
Likes: 207
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,971
Likes: 207
Yeah, I am confident that Stephan Schilling did most of the tube work after the initial stroking & reaming and then knitted the whole works together.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

1 member likes this: Themauserkid
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,971
Likes: 207
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,971
Likes: 207
Originally Posted by Themauserkid
...... I too have read both in regards to the K, it sounds like more research is in order....

Said effort is a trip, or 2, to Suhl and get to the bottom as best we can. Most collectors & authorities on these fantastic smokepoles from the >>Glorious Age of Gunning<< have 60+ years and I just am not convinced that the next generation will be addicted so....

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,971
Likes: 207
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,971
Likes: 207
[Linked Image from thumbs2.imgbox.com]

Stephan Schilling was compensated and took liability for 2 separate tasks.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Joined: May 2024
Posts: 12
Boxlock
OP Offline
Boxlock

Joined: May 2024
Posts: 12
A trip or two is on my list, I would love to. I’m in my 30’s but you are right, most of my friends who are interested in this genre are 30+ years older than myself.

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,971
Likes: 207
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,971
Likes: 207
I'll book you a room then....


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,522
Likes: 223
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,522
Likes: 223
Raimey,
Is this rifle yours or Themauserkid's? Great photos but no ID of the owner. The 118,35 is the bore (not groove or bullet) diameter expressed in gauge measurement, dating the rifle between 1893 and 1912. In my experience this bore diameter most often equates to .358-.359" groove diameter. This suggests the possibility of using the Tesco style bullet, 35 Rem. (180 or 200 grain, the new Flex tip for the Remington) or several different cast bullets. Is there a proof load shown on the side of the barrels? If so, bullet weight? Important for regulation.
Mike

Last edited by Der Ami; 05/17/24 09:07 AM.
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,971
Likes: 207
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,971
Likes: 207
Oh Ford, not mine for sure. I was just rendering aide by posting fotos.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Joined: May 2024
Posts: 12
Boxlock
OP Offline
Boxlock

Joined: May 2024
Posts: 12
Thanks for all the help and info. No, this one doesn’t have a proof load on the barrels.

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,971
Likes: 207
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,971
Likes: 207
Yeah, the load data didn't come along to later . But there was some confusion on >>Service Load<< & >>Proof Load<< that led to real issues. I think most Jägers didn't have any idea what to stick in the hole of the chamber & they relied on the firearms merchant. Too, there was a voluntary load data stamp that warranted an extra fee and you know the effort Lead Dirigibles(Balloons) have....

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,522
Likes: 223
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,522
Likes: 223
Raimey,
In addition to the confusion caused by showing bore diameters in gauge measurement and not addressing the cases, one of the main reasons for the 1911 improvements to the 1891 proof law is the confusion you mentioned. If a rifle was proofed with a "strong powder" the hunters were hesitant to use ammo loaded with a greater amount of powder, even though it may have been "weaker". After the change, they typically didn't show the weight or type of powder but did the weight and type of bullet.
Mike

Last edited by Der Ami; 05/23/24 06:11 PM.
Joined: Mar 2021
Posts: 73
Likes: 10
Sidelock
Offline
Sidelock

Joined: Mar 2021
Posts: 73
Likes: 10
Tag for reference

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,971
Likes: 207
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,971
Likes: 207
Yeah, I am going to go back & re-read Wirnsberger in German & English and then you & I can cross swords in a week or so.

Serbus,


Raimey
rse

Page 1 of 5 1 2 3 4 5

Link Copied to Clipboard

doublegunshop.com home | Welcome | Sponsors & Advertisers | DoubleGun Rack | Doublegun Book Rack

Order or request info | Other Useful Information

Updated every minute of everyday!


Copyright (c) 1993 - 2024 doublegunshop.com. All rights reserved. doublegunshop.com - Bloomfield, NY 14469. USA These materials are provided by doublegunshop.com as a service to its customers and may be used for informational purposes only. doublegunshop.com assumes no responsibility for errors or omissions in these materials. THESE MATERIALS ARE PROVIDED "AS IS" WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EITHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANT-ABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, OR NON-INFRINGEMENT. doublegunshop.com further does not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the information, text, graphics, links or other items contained within these materials. doublegunshop.com shall not be liable for any special, indirect, incidental, or consequential damages, including without limitation, lost revenues or lost profits, which may result from the use of these materials. doublegunshop.com may make changes to these materials, or to the products described therein, at any time without notice. doublegunshop.com makes no commitment to update the information contained herein. This is a public un-moderated forum participate at your own risk.

Note: The posting of Copyrighted material on this forum is prohibited without prior written consent of the Copyright holder. For specifics on Copyright Law and restrictions refer to: http://www.copyright.gov/laws/ - doublegunshop.com will not monitor nor will they be held liable for copyright violations presented on the BBS which is an open and un-moderated public forum.

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
(Release build 20201027)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 7.0.33-0+deb9u11+hw1 Page Time: 0.263s Queries: 102 (0.224s) Memory: 1.0387 MB (Peak: 1.8991 MB) Data Comp: Off Server Time: 2024-06-18 03:00:52 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS