doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion Classic & Custom Single Barreled Sporting Rifles @ doublegunshop.com Joseph Singer Rifle help

Good Afternoon. Joseph Singer rifle. Bought as a 30-06. Took it to a gunsmith and the bolt would not close on a 30-06 “go” gauge. I have determined the markings on the left side of the receiver closest to the barrel. St.m.G./10Gr. = Stahl Mantel GeschoAY 10grams = Steel Jacketed Bullet, 154grain.
If anyone can help, what is the 7,44mm? The 10.22? The 8/2?
2381 on the barrel and the receiver – Is that the serial or Jos. Singer’s production #?

Thanks. redoftx.

NICE gun!

Looks like 2 witness marks on the bottom of the receiver and no match on the barrel, so perhaps the 3rd barrel on this action?

7,4 mm is the bore diameter. I wonder if it is some odd / rare Swedish round X 59mm? Have you a chamber depth or cast? Yeah, 10 gramme bullet and that looks to be the 4000 ATM(Atmosphärenpulver 4000) stamp coupled with the bullet mass. Pass thru the Zella-Mehlis proof facility in Okotber 1922 being #872 for the month. >>Made in Germany<< denotes it was for export to an English speakin' destination.

Ford will ferret it out....

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Maybe a 7X64 Brenneke as it was quite new in 1922. But then again probably some American round..

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Thanks Raimey for your insight. Here is another pic of the receiver underneath by the barrel.

The scope on the rifle is a Hensoldt-Wetzlar ZIELJAGD (target hunter) 4x8/31.

Yeah, that is the mechanic's palette where everyone that handled the piece applied their mark for liability & compensation. All are very visible & the >>Y<< stamps are interesting because there were not any mechanics with a last name that begins w/ a >>Y<<. I am afraid that only a chamber cast or length may garner the needed info.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

The 270 Winchester and 7x64 both use bullets smaller than the bore diameter marked on the barrel (also the 270 wasn't introduced until 1925) so neither of them is indicated. The indicated bore diameter of 7.4 mm means the actual bore is between 7.4 and 7.5mm (a 7.5mm gauge would not enter, but a 7.4mm gauge would). A bore diameter of 7.499mm would be pretty tight for a 30-caliber rifle but we often see tight bore diameters. Raimey is correct about the meaning of the proof marks, but they do not show barrel groove diameter, chamber neck diameter or case length. A chamber cast (and maybe "slug" the barrel) would be required to determine these dimensions. If these dimensions are verified as correct for 30/06 the question arises, "why doesn't the bolt close on a go-gauge?". The bolt may have been swapped out during the last hundred years or the barrel may have been installed using a cartridge as a go gauge (without allowing for tolerance). The barrel and action are both numbered and if the bolt doesn't match (may only have the last two numbers), a different bolt may have been used. The rifle was built using a surplus WW1 action, so different numbers don't positively mean the bolt was changed. There is no way now to prove how the barrel was installed. I suggest actual cartridges be checked to see if they will chamber (some brands may chamber and others not). If a factory cartridge chambers (after verifying other dimensions), enjoy using that brand. The problem with headspace comes in if there is grossly excess headspace. Having minimum headspace is not dangerous. Having a too small chamber neck diameter or too short chamber neck area can possibly be dangerous if the case can't expand to release the bullet (a fired case should easily accept a .308" bullet). Good luck.
Mike

When it comes to old firearms one can never assume anything, even if the cartridge is well marked on the barrel. Too many have been rechambered to some new owner's favorite cartridge, so you really need to do a chamber cast and measure the dimensions to be sure what it is.

I will get a cast done. You all are appreciated.

Does the stock/bbl inletting show any signs of the bbl having been set back? Shims on either side of the tapered bbl, epoxy filler, etc.

The only reason I ask is that the bbl itself where it seats against the action has the same Dot Punch border as done on the action top around the scope block and I can see it along the left rail.
The only difference is that when done on the action, the Dot Border is accompanied by the small repetitive scroll to the 'inside' of it.

That small scroll is missing on the bbl border which makes me think the bbl may have been set back a small amt at some point and that detail was lost.
If it's the orig bbl (It is #'d), the inletting would show a gap or a gap and a filler.

A set back bbl would have then meant a slight rechambering to reset the headspace. Maybe it was done to the gauge of a cartridge that was handy instead of a HS gauge.
..Or maybe they never got around to doing the Re-chambering to reset the HS after setting back the Bbl. That's why a 30-06 won't chamber.

No Witness MArk on the bbl,,that may have gone missing when the shoulder was turned back in the bbl set back opperation as well

..and then all this may just be a bunch of WAGs and have nothing what so ever to do with the whole situation!
Nice looking rifle though. Hope you get it sorted out.

The LA, Cal bbl address would make me think it was made up in 30-06 for a US client or at least for a US off the rack sale.