doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion Double Rifles, Paradox Guns & Gauge Rifles @ doublegunshop.com 43 Mauser Double Rifle

Or at least we think that's what it is. What do the proofs say? Black powder or Nitro? What bullet would be appropriate?

https://postimg.cc/gallery/hXQT2zL

More photos. 7-1/4 pound hand detachable sidelock gun with 28" barrels

https://postimg.cc/gallery/CpXy7KF

Vol423,
Your nice rifle was proofed between 1893 and 1911. The 58/50 is the gauge measurement of the rifle barrel's bore (not groove or bullet) diameter. This measurement translates to 10.92mm. The actual groove diameter can be found by "slugging" the bore or when you make a chamber cast, have it extended into the bore. From the marks in the photos, it seems to be black powder proofed, but that does not mean it cannot be used with appropriate "nitro for black" loads.
Mike

Thanks Mike.

Where would I go to find "nitro for black" loads?

Vol423,
The first thing to do is to determine the actual cartridge the rifle is chambered for. If it is actually chambered for 43 Mauser (11.15x60R), the last commercial cartridges I know of are the ones by Dominion CIL from Canada. They are no longer loaded but are still sometimes found in older gun stores or larger gun shows. They are usually only found 1 or 2 boxes at a time and are expensive when you do find them. Also, the CIL cases are of the "balloon head" type, which require special procedures to prevent, or at least slow down case head separation. If you can't find any ammo, the best way is to load your own. Bell made cases (solid head), but they are also hard to find. Cases can be made from 45-90 Winchester. It is fortunate that some black powder silhouette shooters created enough demand that Starline makes 45-90 cases, from time to time. The 43 Mauser cases have an unusual base, known as the "Mauser Base", but the 45-90 case head can be reformed (with a good bit of work) to approximate the Mauser Base. By case forming carefully to locate the shoulder to headspace on it, instead of the rim, the 45-90 cases can be used without reforming the head. The 45-90 rims will need to be reduced in diameter, however.
If a chamber cast shows the rifle is not 11.15x60R, but one of the many cartridges based on the Mauser base case, you won't be able to find ammo (black powder, nor nitro) and will have to load your own or find a custom handloader. If the actual cartridge uses a case shorter than 52mm long with a Mauser base, you can make them from 45-70 or 40-65 cases instead of 45-90.
Good luck,
Mike

Certain vintages of the CIL brass have a habit of cracking from the rim to to primer pocket. Close inspection is advised.

HalfaDouble,
You are absolutely correct. I experienced complete head separation with CIL cases of unknown ancestry. At first, I wondered if the cause was mercuric primers but found out they were non-mercuric. Then I read where someone else opined that the "bad cases" were counterfeit cases made by "sand casting". Because of the way the brass looked in the break, I can see how they may have come to that conclusion. I concluded that it would not be possible to economically sand cast them, if it would even be possible at all. I concluded that since the cartridges headspace on the rim and the chambers were over length, if the cases had been sized back to the original dimensions the shoulder would be "set back" significantly. Doing this a couple times could cause separation, even with "solid head cases" and the CIL cases were "ballon head". I decided to sacrifice one of my rare boxes of factory ammo to be sure the cases were "once fired". By setting the sizing die to "kiss" the fired case's shoulder, I then was head spacing on the shoulder (instead. of the rim). I have not lost a case since I started this procedure, but that doesn't mean I won't lose the next one. Now I size all my cases this way whether they are rimmed, rimless, or belted and have had no more problems.
Mike

What a beautiful rifle! I'm in somewhat of the same boat, getting materials together for what-I-assume is a 43 Mauser rifle. I need to cast the chamber and slug the bore, but the prior owner "pinky swears" it's a 43 Mauser.

If you search "43 Mauser" on the Buffalo Arms website, you'll see dies, brass and loaded rounds. They are often out of stock, but I kept looking and bought Redding dies, RCBS #22 shell holder, some Bertram brass and bullets. This was two years ago and sadly haven't done anything yet but hope to this winter - just like last winter....

The shell holder was recommended due to the odd case head of the cartridge, which is thin towards the edge as Der Ami stated above.

A few Double Gun Journals (START THE MAGAZINE AGAIN please!!!!) have nitro-for-black load suggestions for the 43 Mauser and other black powder cartridges. I will endeavor to find those and list them here. The loads suggest a dacron filler. I purchased a bag of that from Michael's craft store.

Hope to find the articles and post the suggested nitro-for-black loads, may take a bit.

Good luck with that beautiful rifle!

Mt Al,
This is worthy of a whole new thread. Since the 11.15x60R was the first of the officially adopted German centerfire cartridges, a great many cartridges during the following years were based on its case in different calibers. The lack of markings or markings that are not well understood makes reliable identification of the cartridge very difficult. This is compounded by the fact that these cartridges were introduced during a time protocols concerning bullet to barrel diameters were being established and were different than those in use today. You can be sure that, in the end, you can find cases and bullets that will work but may have to name it yourself. This is not as bad as it sounds, since you won't have to match your rifle to any available ammunition.
Mike

I had a 43 mauser Rolling Block a 8 or 9 years ago and esily procured components from Buffalo Arms. I have seen 2 or 3 doubles for sale on Gun Broker in the last few years. They were apparently somewhat popular at one point in time. I have also seen combo guns available in the caliber.

Thank you, Mike. I have learned a great deal from your posts over the years when I was in 'lurker' mode. Really appreciate your insight.

I have a .43 Mauser/12ga combination gun. Another member here sold me a lifetime supply of old Canadian Dominion ammo, twelve boxes I think. The stuff shoots reliably and is pretty accurate.

Where I turkey hunt, there are a few "Piney Woods Rooters" still around and the rifle barrel was comforting to have. However, someone (thankfully not a game warden) reminded me it was illegal to possess a rife while turkey hunting. I never have shot a deer with the gun, but I will someday, God willing and the Creek don't rise...Geo

My first double rifle was in 11.15 X 60R, 25 years ago.. It took me 6 months, 2 bullet molds and a few pounds of black powder before I got it regulated. I either give that rifle the credit, or blame, for my Phd in hand loading. I had to duplex the load to 5% SR-4759 but that did it. It's from the 1870's, is an E. Goldmann in Erfurt and is full coverage engraved. I killed one deer with it and it was as effective as the 45-70.

I have it shooting between 2 and 3 inches at 50 yards and for a 150 year old rifle with one barrel worn more than the other and with a few pits, I'll take it.

Good cartridge, good luck with it.

Mike,

I did a chamber cast in the rifle and have some pictures of the casting next to a loaded 43 Mauser round, then next to raw Bertram brass. Just don't know how to post images.

I hope the measurements come through below, lined up and legible. The casting and loaded round look very close, but the casting numbers come out slightly larger than the loaded round. Also, the shoulder on the casting is slightly ahead of and sharper than the brass.

Loaded rounds and raw brass fit in the chambers and the action closes/opens jut fine.

On the barrels, the right barrel has 54,64 and the left has 58,50 (I think it's 50, not very clear).

Case Length Casting, 2.38. Case Length Loaded Cartridge 2.38
Head Diameter Casting, .592. Head Diameter Loaded Cartridge .585
"Base" Diameter Casting, .521. "Base" Diameter Loaded Cartridge, .513
Neck Diameter at the end Casting, .482. Neck Diameter Loaded Cartridge, .464
Bore Diameter of the casting seems to be .450, but tough to measure with offset of the lands and grooves.

I absolutely understand no one can give the "OK, good to shoot!" over the internet, but can you or anyone else discern anything from the measurements above?

Thank you

Yeah, >>54,61<< translates to 0.440"

>>58,50<< translates to 0.43"

If you would forward the fotos to me I would gladly post them.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Too, Black Powder is a Great starting propellant.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Above table is from a Gunmaker from the Little British Isles but still applicable.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

MtAl,
The dimensions of the chamber cast should be larger than the cartridge case, otherwise the cartridge would not chamber. Your chamber cast shows dimensions that are actually pretty good for a rifle the age of yours. If it were my rifle, I would be certain It is chambered for 11.15x60R/43 Mauser. Now, the fun starts. Good luck, maybe you can have it worked out by deer season.
Mike

H. Scherping Hahn DR in 43 Mauser.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Thank you for posting the pics, Raimey. Much appreciated.

I'll get a magnifying glass on the 58.50. Doesn't that seem like a big difference between barrels? .44 to .43?

This will be a potentially dumb question: Per Der Ami, how does one become "certain it is chambered for 11.15x60R" given the dimensions?

This is my first time at this and appreciate the collective wisdom of this group and I don't want to wear anyone out!

The difference just means that a slightly different plug gauge would go the whole length.

Have you actually measured the diameter of each tube? Or slugged the bores?

You will need the particulars of each tube for the bullet diameter where lead & black powder are quite forgiving. Then fireform cases to each chamber. Then you can call the cartridge whatever you want within reason. Remember standardization didn't come along till WWI.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

MtAl
The gauge rods (plugs) were in .01mm "steps" and the numbers stamped on the barrels for the bore (not groove or bullet) diameter were not precise diameters. There is not much difference between 0.4400 and 0.4399. The "book" indicates the proper diameter bullet is .446", but the Mod 71 I shoot takes a .454" bullet to shoot decently (I don't shoot black powder in it) and it won't chamber unless I size the neck in a 444 die after seating the bullet. From what I can see of the dimensions you reported, you shouldn't need to go through that "goat roping" to get it to shoot.
Mike

Raimey and Der Ami,

Really appreciate the insight and advice. I purchased Hawk .446 lead bullets and the loaded rounds are lead and black powder. I would like to try black powder, need to buy some, and plan on trying 'nitro for black' load recipes from DGJ articles, have the dacron fluff and the smokeless powder if/when those loads are tested.

I'll slug the bore, would be nice to know and since I'm an old pro at chamber casting (this was my first one) I can add another skill.

Thanks for sharing your experience and insights.

Yeah, listen to Ford & you will be an ole Pro.

I should have typed Black Powder Substitute. That is what I use. Sometimes I must drop it thru a tube several times into the case to get the published volume. And if you are over, it just gets blown out the tube. Only task is keeping everything clean and a small hand bottle of Oxy Clean will make the cases proper after ignition.

Can you measure the velocity?

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

My objection to black powder is strictly personal and I am not advocating against it-" some of my best friends" use it. As a matter of fact, I just read an evaluation of a new black powder substitute that hopefully will work for me. It is classified as a flammable solid, which is good for shipping, but I don't I don't know if will cause the bullet to obturate like "real" black will. Thirty years ago, I talked my friends into buying "Golden Powder" for our annual primitive weapon deer hunt and it was so inconsistent we couldn't sight the rifles in. I still haven't lived that down, even though some of my friends have passed on.
Mike

Thanks for the clarification on black powder substitute and the note on Oxy Clean. Is there are particular black powder replacement spec to look for? I've only reloaded with smokeless.

I don't have a chronograph but will ask some friends and see if I can borrow one.

Since COVID 19, pretty much whatever you can source. I did like Hodgden Triple 7, but looks like I now favour Hodgden Pyrodex RS or Hodgden Select Pyrodex RS, which looks to be a promising choice going forward. Black Powder will keep you honest until you sort out all the particulars and then you can migrate to semi-smokeless. Black Powder will build some confidence. My experience with straight-wall cases is that most seem to be a compressed powder charge.


Yeah, just get a small hand sprayer of Oxy Clean and a glass Ball jar with lid & seal. Drop the cases in the Ball jar with the open end up; squirt a dab of Oxy Clean in each case & fill with water. Shake virtuously after shooting effort. Then do the final prep @ home.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

I've been loading BP in cartridges since the early 1980's. May I recommend the "SPG Black Powder Cartridge Loading Primer". Also, anything by Paul Matthews is good.

If this is your first endeavor into double rifles, "Shooting the British Double Rifle" by Grahame Wright is the best I know of. It helped me immensely when I bought my first double.

NFB loads, J.C. Munnell in the now defunct Double Gun Journal had some. Most of their back issues are available but I don't know which issue they are in.

Great info on all sides.

I for one would like to see fotos of the Scherping including any & all marks????


Cordialità,

Raimey
rse

For what it is worth, the black powder substitute I was talking about is Shooters World Multi-Purpose Black. I have no connection to the company and haven't tried it yet. If you want to read the evaluation, it is found in the October 2024 issue of Handloader magazine, page 10.
Mike

There is an excellent article by Ross Seyfried on loading the 43 Mauser in Handloader Mag June 2002 #217.

Back issue is available.

https://www.wolfeoutdoorsports.com/...&category=170&is_category_page=1

it lists at $5 but adds to the cart at $10?

You got me, call Wolfe and ask.